The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[sailor734]

It would be very helpful to know if there are other serious proposals being submitted and what they suggest for the property. As I've said , I think it would be more effective to support some other viable plan for the property rather than just being in opposition to the Harris proposal. It would be easier to derail this proposal by saying "It's good but "X" is a better idea for this land.

One thing that does strike me about the Harris plan is the location. It seems quite remote from healthcare, social services, grocery stores, pharmacies etc. for a population that almost certainly relies solely on walking or public transit.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

In terms of what could actually be BETTER for the sizeable six acre Belyea Arena property, a significant residential development in the form of apartments and/or condos would be far more desirable for the city and both current and prospective residents of the Bayshore Beach neighbourhood.

While, 40 Transitional housing units stuffed into an abandoned hockey arena, and plans for to erect a humongous inflatable soccer air dome would definitely be WORSE for the neighbourhood, and the city at large, than a hockey rink. Brent Harris chose a flagrantly disingenuous name for this project by calling it, "The Better Belyea".

Frankly, six acres to provide 40 transitional beds is a really bad usage of land resources. Likewise, constructing a giant, inflatable soccer dome in the middle of a densely populated residential neighbourhood is an incredibly bad idea and bad use of land that could instead be used for residential development.

There's potential for hundreds of units with ocean views at this property, which is one of the few large properties left on the West Side with this type of ocean view residential potential. If you don't believe me, take a look around the West Side, other than Fort Dufferin, there's no comparably large parcels of land within or adjacent to densely populated seaside areas of the West Side...

The Belyea property is located within the residential area that features the best ocean views of any densely populated par of the city. Approving Harris's proposal would sell short the property and the entire neighbourhood.

There's potential at this property for something far greater and transformational than what Saint John's most abrasive and confrontational city councillor is proposing for the Bayshore Beach neighbourhood.

Six acres of beach adjacent real estate could be far better utilized by constructing hundreds of new units in the form of apartments and condos, than in the form of 40 transitional beds and a gigantic inflatable soccer dome. Yet, for councillor Harris, he seems to think the tail should wag the dog... and honestly, I'm not sure how his plan could be any worse, and any more short sighted than it already is, other than if it's approved, how it could hold back the long term development prospects of the entire Bayshore neighbourhood.

I've taken the liberty to use the skyscraperpage.com database and the SNB Property Assessment website to insert three mid rise/high rise developments from Saint John and Moncton, Fort Howe (9 storeys), Brentwood Tower (15 storeys), and St Bernard Place (a proposed 18 storeys), onto the Belyea Arena property to illustrate how much potential there is for residential development at this property. By using buildings many of us are familiar with here in the Saint John and Moncton regions, I hope it helps convince some of the skeptics here of the potential for this property that Cllr Brent Harris is selling profoundly short.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

It would be very helpful to know if there are other serious proposals being submitted and what they suggest for the property. As I've said , I think it would be more effective to support some other viable plan for the property rather than just being in opposition to the Harris proposal. It would be easier to derail this proposal by saying "It's good but "X" is a better idea for this land.

One thing that does strike me about the Harris plan is the location. It seems quite remote from healthcare, social services, grocery stores, pharmacies etc. for a population that almost certainly relies solely on walking or public transit.

Thanks, and I agree, it would be very helpful to know what the other serious proposals are. Though, it's not a question of if, but rather what.

Though it also becomes a question of why... why isn't any information about the the other proposals being released? Especially now since Brent Harris has publicly released his entire proposal, and has been going around online trashing the other proposals based on information he has as a city councillor.

I'm not sure he's had any ethics or code of conduct violations in doing so, but he's absolutely conducting himself in an unprofessional manner in his dialogue with his constituents regarding his proposal.

Perhaps the lack of public information is due to the other proposals coming from developers from outside the Saint John region, or even outside of New Brunswick altogether? If so, they perhaps might not be aware of antics of Councillor Harris.

Maybe this property actually did attract the mythical developers from outside of New Brunswick or Atlantic Canada?

Does anyone have any idea if the city has actually tried marketing this property to developers from elsewhere in Canada? If they did... I feel like some of the keeners here would have found out and posted it. So I'm going to assume they have basically done nothing in that regard, beyond the REOI on the city website and a few posts on social media... which would honestly be quite disappointing, but not at all surprising.

Still, I'm trying to keep positive and hopeful something positive will actually be developed here instead of Brent Harris's really bad plan.

[sailor734]

Right off the bat the Harris proposal doesn't seem to meet the City's goal as set out in the REOI.....

https://saintjohn.ca/sites/default/files/documents/EOI2.bid%20400%20Lowell%20Street.pdf

"The City has determined that the parcel is surplus to its needs and is currently seeking
expressions of interest to develop the property. Proposals should pursue a density threshold that
maximises the residential opportunity of the land, while massing the development in a manner
that is sensitive to the built context of the surrounding neighbourhood."

It also talks about tax base increase and the developer's track record, experience and financial capability...... The scoring matrix makes for an interesting read and seems to me to render the Harris proposal less competitive than more traditional uses.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Right off the bat the Harris proposal doesn't seem to meet the City's goal as set out in the REOI.....

https://saintjohn.ca/sites/default/files/documents/EOI2.bid%20400%20Lowell%20Street.pdf

"The City has determined that the parcel is surplus to its needs and is currently seeking
expressions of interest to develop the property. Proposals should pursue a density threshold that
maximises the residential opportunity of the land, while massing the development in a manner
that is sensitive to the built context of the surrounding neighbourhood."

It also talks about tax base increase and the developer's track record, experience and financial capability...... The scoring matrix makes for an interesting read and seems to me to render the Harris proposal less competitive than more traditional uses.

This is how you do it folks. Get EOI with specific scoring to meet broader objectives.

Bravo.

Brent's would score poorly for a variety of reasons -- regardless that he probably had access to the EOI prior to publication.

This was all a play for victim points.

And specifically, in Brent's there was no mention on the substance abuse tolerance for the transition housing; a key point for any of these facilities. Would it have been low tolerance, mid, or wet shelter? That would impact the neighbors substantially.

ref: https://homeless.org.uk/knowledge-hub/supporting-people-who-use-drugs/

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Right off the bat the Harris proposal doesn't seem to meet the City's goal as set out in the REOI.....

https://saintjohn.ca/sites/default/files/documents/EOI2.bid%20400%20Lowell%20Street.pdf

"The City has determined that the parcel is surplus to its needs and is currently seeking
expressions of interest to develop the property. Proposals should pursue a density threshold that
maximises the residential opportunity of the land, while massing the development in a manner
that is sensitive to the built context of the surrounding neighbourhood."

It also talks about tax base increase and the developer's track record, experience and financial capability...... The scoring matrix makes for an interesting read and seems to me to render the Harris proposal less competitive than more traditional uses.

Wait, a soccer dome over almost two acres isn't maximizing the residential opportunity of the land?

It's definitely not sensitive to the built context of the surrounding neighbourhood either, and won't increase the tax base nearly as much as a purely residential development would.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a non profit transitional housing initiative run as a charity be exempt from paying property taxes?

If that's the case, the only potential for raising tax revenue would be the soccer side of the proposal, which would still only be a small fraction of the potential tax revenue compared to a purely residential development. Plus, the soccer stuff isn't even planned until ten years down the road.

Why did the city even give him permission to present this proposal if it so dismally fails to meet the City's goal set out in the REOI?!?

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Wait, a soccer dome over almost two acres isn't maximizing the residential opportunity of the land?

It's definitely not sensitive to the built context of the surrounding neighbourhood either, and won't increase the tax base nearly as much as a purely residential development would.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a non profit transitional housing initiative run as a charity be exempt from paying property taxes?

If that's the case, the only potential for raising tax revenue would be the soccer side of the proposal, which would still only be a small fraction of the potential tax revenue compared to a purely residential development. Plus, the soccer stuff isn't even planned until ten years down the road.

Why did the city even give him permission to present this proposal if it so dismally fails to meet the City's goal set out in the REOI?!?

That would depend on how it the organization is structured and if they are registered as a charity with CRA, which is harder to set up and maintain than most people realize. Something like Hestia House or the Outflow shelter do not pay property tax levies as registered charities, but those owned by SJ Non-Profit Housing Inc. for example, or NB Housing corp. itself all pay property taxes.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

That would depend on how it the organization is structured and if they are registered as a charity with CRA, which is harder to set up and maintain than most people realize. Something like Hestia House or the Outflow shelter do not pay property tax levies as registered charities, but those owned by SJ Non-Profit Housing Inc. for example, or NB Housing corp. itself all pay property taxes.

So they don't have to associated with a Church then... that's interesting, thanks.

Brent Harris has been asked this question many times (if it will be run as a charity and the tax piece) and he's avoided answering it, a long with pretty much any other question that doesn't fit his narrative. He has derided the notion that we need to grow the tax base, so it wouldn't surprise me if he intends to run it as a charity. It also wouldn't surprise me if he's one of those people that doesn't understand the complexities and difficulties of setting up and maintaining status as a registered charity with the CRA.

[cdnguys]

[sailor734]

Certainly looks like 2 floors of parking below grade (at least at the Charlotte St end of the excavation). That's a good sign.

[DyAm00394]

Proposed public hearing date on October 1st 2024 for:

• 473-475 Millidge Avenue (PID: 55147797); 471 Millidge Avenue (PID: 00041525); and 461 Millidge Avenue (PID: 00295253).
  
  To facilitate the redevelopment of the properties into a multi-building, multi-unit residential development.
  
  
  
  
• 665 Loch Lomond Road (PID: 55102917); 669 Loch Lomond Road (PID: 55102925); 0 Commerce Drive (portion of PID: 00313155)
  
  To develop a U-Haul moving and self storage store.

Also "Proposed Municipal Plan Amendment - Saint John Industrial Park Expansion" is in the agenda and there is LOTS of citizen letters (211 pages) and two petitions against this with 78 pages of signatures on one of the petitions.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Proposed public hearing date on October 1st 2024 for:

• 473-475 Millidge Avenue (PID: 55147797); 471 Millidge Avenue (PID: 00041525); and 461 Millidge Avenue (PID: 00295253).
  
  To facilitate the redevelopment of the properties into a multi-building, multi-unit residential development.
  
  
  
  
• 665 Loch Lomond Road (PID: 55102917); 669 Loch Lomond Road (PID: 55102925); 0 Commerce Drive (portion of PID: 00313155)
  
  To develop a U-Haul moving and self storage store.

Also "Proposed Municipal Plan Amendment - Saint John Industrial Park Expansion" is in the agenda and there is LOTS of citizen letters (211 pages) and two petitions against this with 78 pages of signatures on one of the petitions.

So more buildings proposed for where the one is behind the Tipsy Tomato on Millidge? ....maybe out towards the street?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

I recall driving by recently and it looked pretty tired. Is it all vacant? Any idea what the commercial vacancy rate is locally?

If location was a key attractor there the lot across the street besides the naval reserve bar building that has been a gay bar, cannabis outlet, and forget whats it is now would have sold a bazillion times.

I drove by Place 400 and actually slowed down to have a look. "Pretty tired" is an understatement. The cladding is actually missing off part of the second floor leaving exposed plywood.....fair bit of graffiti too. The whole place looks well on the way to "derelict"

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

So more buildings proposed for where the one is behind the Tipsy Tomato on Millidge? ....maybe out towards the street?

Sounds to me like all or part of the commercial complex at 473-475 Millidge will be demolished. Otherwise, why mention the PID? Since they mention the vacant lot at 471 just to the south, sounds like it would at least result in the demolition of the building Tipsy Tomato is in.

I wonder if they'll try to pick up some of the vacant land on the southeast half of the substation (https://paol-efel.snb.ca/paol.html?v=1.0.94&lang=en&pan=05150703), or if that would be more useful to whoever owns 431 Millidge, which is almost assuredly planned to be MUR, if anything.

[DyAm00394]

$103.1 million worth of building permits have been issued so far this year. Also two new cranes were installed this past week alone according to the mayor.

Here’s what the mayor posted on social media about this:

“I am pleased to share that the City of Saint John’s building permit values have exceeded $100 million year to date.

In the past week alone, two cranes have been erected for new housing projects, with several more developments anticipated this year”.

[DyAm00394]

At tonight’s meeting was a presentation about the multi-purpose recreational facility. They entered into a memorandum of understanding with the SJ Field House Inc and YMCA to develop this facility on the grounds directly adjacent to the Irving Oil Field House. (It will be an addition built onto the field house building).

YMCA will be operating this facility for the city.

The new proposed facility will have two regulation sized ice surfaces, and additional space for other programming elements like arts and culture. As well as space for the relocation of the east side public library branch. Estimated construction cost of $48 million.

[DyAm00394]

Couple updates from the the city CAO at tonight's council meeting:

- Kaleidoscope Social Impact's 39 affordable housing project on Broadview Street will restart this month (August). Funding issues have been resolved.

Housing Accelerator Fund progress:

- 356 building permits, 32% of the three year target of 1,124 units.

- affordable housing is a minimum of 101 units, so far 47 units. 47% of the three year target.

- missing middle is a minimum of 164, 92 units so far. 56% of the three year target.

- multi-unit apartment style is a target of 805 units, 238 units so far. 30% of the three year target.

- 42 building permits for other building forms issued so far. Including single detached homes, mobile homes, etc. The 42 permits also counts towards the three year goal of 1,124 units.

Ihtoli-maqahamok – The Gathering Space update:

- The new restaurant patios are expected to move to full occupancy later this week.

- Harbour Passage extension 1st section along Market Slip opening later this week. The remaining section around the Fundy Quay is due to be complete and open by October 2024. However, during the time that structural steel goes up for the first building at Fundy Quay, this section will be closed for safety reasons.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

At tonight’s meeting was a presentation about the multi-purpose recreational facility. They entered into a memorandum of understanding with the SJ Field House Inc and YMCA to develop this facility on the grounds directly adjacent to the Irving Oil Field House. (It will be an addition built onto the field house building).

YMCA will be operating this facility for the city.

The new proposed facility will have two regulation sized ice surfaces, and additional space for other programming elements like arts and culture. As well as space for the relocation of the east side public library branch. Estimated construction cost of $48 million.

Absolutely a perfect spot for that. Always wondered if that was the original plan for the extra space. It's always looked odd with the nice facility next to the empty gravel lot.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

The new proposed facility will have two regulation sized ice surfaces, and additional space for other programming elements like arts and culture. As well as space for the relocation of the east side public library branch. Estimated construction cost of $48 million.

How exactly does this line up with the city's rationale for shutting down the Belyea Arena, that 5 ice surfaces were too many?

The city funded report stated that Saint John had too many ice surfaces, (five excluding TD Station), and recommended shutting down the Belyea or Gorman to bring that number down to 4 ice surfaces. This new multiplex would bring the total ice surfaces up to 6. While I think that report was BS, anyways, and that this development is a great thing, and it just goes to show how inept, arbitrary, and contradictory our municipal government can behave at times.

Having listened to the council meeting, it seems Barry Ogden is one of the few people on council who actually cares about the West Side, and also cares about keeping up with Moncton and Fredericton. Not only did Councillor Ogden emphatically state his belief that no rinks should be shut down as a result of this, he suggested the city also look to invest an a multi surface rink for the West Side. Although, it would probably be a lot more cost effective, in the short term at least, to repair and reopen the Belyea Arena, than to tear down the Peter Murray Arena and build a new two surface rink similar to this proposed facility.

If the West Side saw a substantial residential development go up at the Belyea property and a two rink multiplex eventually replace the Peter Murray Arena, that would actually be something to commend as good planning. However, if council decides that either the Murray or Gorman should get shut down, and approves Brent Harris's terrible proposal to cram 40-46 transitional housing units into the abandoned Belyea Arena, they'll deserve to be burned in effigy outside of city hall.

I was skeptical about Barry Ogden before, but it seems he's one of the few people on council who actually cares enough to ask questions, criticize things, and not simply go along with the self congratulatory crap that rest of council does quite often. It's a shame he didn't win the Saint John Harbour seat in 2018... but perhaps he could make a great mayor for Saint John one day, as he really seems to get the big picture stuff that the others on council mostly don't.

Here's a link timestamped to Cllr Ogden's comments regarding this project, the need for a similar facility in West Saint John, and the need to keep up with Moncton/Fredericton.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Absolutely a perfect spot for that. Always wondered if that was the original plan for the extra space. It's always looked odd with the nice facility next to the empty gravel lot.

AFAIK this has always been the plan, down to the footprint of the building and its contents. Extra parking was never needed, and why pave if you're gonna build anyway?