The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 752

J.OT13 · #**15021** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 6:35 PM**

Some SkyTrain trivia. When the original 21 kms opened in 1985, only 1.4 kilometers was underground through the Dunsmuir tunnel, which represented 7% of the system. By 2016 with the opening of the Evergreen Line, 13kms were underground, including 2 kms of the Evergreen, 9 kms on Canada and 1 km in New Westminster, for a total of 16%. (Note, that doesn't seem to include the 600 meters between Portal Park and Waterfront which use to be outside but are now under roads and buildings).

The 6 kms Millenium extension will bring the proportion up to 22% however, the Surrey-Langley extension will bring that back down to 19%.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-ceo-kevin-desmond-vision

TorontoDrew · #**15022** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 6:40 PM**

What's the trivia question?

J.OT13 · #**15023** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 6:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

What's the trivia question?

How much of the SkyTrain is underground?

Chadillaccc · #**15024** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 8:01 PM**

Got me thinking, even once the first phase of the Green Line is done, Calgary will only have under 4 km of tunnel total, not including trenches. At 80 km that will mean only 5% of the system underground.

J.OT13 · #**15025** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 8:25 PM**

After Stage 2, the O-Train will have around 7 kilometers of tunnel and 5 underground stations. That will be close to 11% of the system (64.5 km/41 stations).

The dominating build form will be trenches, with 11 such stations. 5 stations could be considered elevated (6 if you really stretch the definition). 5 highway median stations. The rest are harder to categorize, mostly on the surface with entrances through elevated walkways or overpasses.

All existing and Stage 2 stations can be viewed on O-Train Fans, with pictures or renderings.

https://www.railfans.ca/otrain/the-stations

Innsertnamehere · #**15026** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 8:47 PM**

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-re...deral-government-covers-funding-gap.html

Ontario is now moving forward with the Hamilton LRT again.

They are requesting Federal funding, and may shorten the line to either Queenston Circle or Gage Avenue, depending on how much funding is contributed.

J.OT13 · #**15027** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 8:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-re...deral-government-covers-funding-gap.html

Ontario is now moving forward with the Hamilton LRT again.

They are requesting Federal funding, and may shorten the line to either Queenston Circle or Gage Avenue, depending on how much funding is contributed.

Happy to see the project is back on the table, but this is an extremely frustrating situation. How much more will this shorter line cost because what will ultimately a 2+ year delay? If anything, the Ontario PCs should cover the short-fall for the stunt they pulled.

I know it's not realistic, but man I wish politicians would get punished for being incompetent or pulling ultra-partisan dumb moves out of spite.

Chadillaccc · #**15028** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 9:46 PM**

That's amazing news about Hamilton!

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

After Stage 2, the O-Train will have around 7 kilometers of tunnel and 5 underground stations. That will be close to 11% of the system (64.5 km/41 stations).

The dominating build form will be trenches, with 11 such stations. 5 stations could be considered elevated (6 if you really stretch the definition). 5 highway median stations. The rest are harder to categorize, mostly on the surface with entrances through elevated walkways or overpasses.

All existing and Stage 2 stations can be viewed on O-Train Fans, with pictures or renderings.

https://www.railfans.ca/otrain/the-stations

Yeah essentially until the 8th Avenue Subway happens (unknown), Calgary will be stuck around 4 km of tunnel with 5 underground stations, 4 elevated stations, and 2 trenched stations total after Green Line phase 1 and the Erlton rebuild (both 2027 ish). That'll be 80 km 60 stations, 49 at grade (19 separated, 20 integrated), and the other 11 already mentioned.

When the untold date of the 8th Ave Subway happens, that will be another ~3 km of subway and 3 stations.

The CTrain stations look great. Can't wait til the final renders of the Green Line get released.

SteelTown · #**15029** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 10:03 PM**

Here's the other five projects the province wants Federal funding:

The province will submit Hamilton LRT as one of five priority GTHA transit projects to the federal government for funding, The other priorities are the Ontario Line, Yonge north subway extension, the Scarborough subway extension and the Eglinton Crosstown West.

The requests will be submitted via the Investing In Canada Infrastructure Program (ICIP) Transit Program process.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-1.5907156

MalcolmTucker · #**15030** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 10:43 PM**

What would be the total capital cost for those 5 projects?

swimmer_spe · #**15031** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 10:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Here's the other five projects the province wants Federal funding:

The province will submit Hamilton LRT as one of five priority GTHA transit projects to the federal government for funding, The other priorities are the Ontario Line, Yonge north subway extension, the Scarborough subway extension and the Eglinton Crosstown West.

The requests will be submitted via the Investing In Canada Infrastructure Program (ICIP) Transit Program process.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-1.5907156

If I were looking into my political crystal ball to the things that the current government will do, I would say all of them might happen. The only one that I have my doubts is YN, but that is more due to congestion, not due to whether it should happen. They are going to be looking at stimulating the economy, and these 5 projects are shovel ready and are in a vote rich area.

Innsertnamehere · #**15032** Posted **Feb 9, 2021, 11:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

What would be the total capital cost for those 5 projects?

About 30 billion plus or minus a few billion. Gets about 40km of new subway lines for Toronto and 9-14km of LRT for Hamilton depending on the length chosen.

MalcolmTucker · #**15033** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 1:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

About 30 billion plus or minus a few billion. Gets about 40km of new subway lines for Toronto and 9-14km of LRT for Hamilton depending on the length chosen.

So the numbers.

The existing ICIP pot has around $20 billion nation wide, so ~$8 billion for Ontario. Existing announced transit projects are approximately $4.356 billion. So barring new money for the next 6 years, the amount more than $3.6 billion or so will have to come from either new spending, or 2028 and later commitments.

Even all the available cash, plus a renewal at the same rate until 2040 will only barely fund these projects at 50%.

Currently funded projects:

Reecemartin · #**15034** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 2:19 PM**

Our latest video talks about the revived Hamilton Tramway, the fourth in the Toronto Area: https://youtu.be/NER72K9hOfE

Doady · #**15035** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 4:30 PM**

There's no city in Canada that has neglected transit for the past 30 years more than Hamilton, Ontario. Ridership should be on par with London, Winnipeg, Quebec City, 60, 70, 80 riders per capita, but instead over the years, even with increased funding from the province in recent years, HSR ridership has not only stagnated but actually declined and fallen behind MiWay, Guelph Transit, Grand River Transit, Brampton Transit....

From 2014 to 2019, Hamilton Street Railway's ridership declined from 22.3 million to 21.7 million. Compare that to Brampton Transit, which saw annual ridership increase from 20.4 million to 31.9 million during that same time period, or MiWay, which saw ridership increase from 36.6 million to 41.2 million. The people of the US would look at these numbers and say that Brampton and Mississauga are experiencing increasing poverty compared to Hamilton, that Canada is allowing too many immigrants into the country, but here in Canada we know better, don't we?

Look at these numbers. Is the lack of rail or lack of funding from higher levels of government really what's holding back transit in Hamilton?

scryer · #**15036** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 4:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

So the numbers.

Currently funded projects:

Hmm perhaps I missed it but is there an extension of some sort regarding the TTC streetcars or are these tracks ordered for repairs of the current system?

MalcolmTucker · #**15037** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 5:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scryer

Hmm perhaps I missed it but is there an extension of some sort regarding the TTC streetcars or are these tracks ordered for repairs of the current system?

This work is already complete I think. It was state of good repair capital from the feds from a short term get money flowing fast initiative.

MalcolmTucker · #**15038** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 5:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

Look at these numbers. Is the lack of rail or lack of funding from higher levels of government really what's holding back transit in Hamilton?

Without grabbing their city budgets for the last 10 years, I'd bet it is city council not funding service hours, not realigning any services to target ridership rather than coverage (placing all ridership goals into blast).

Given the LRT barely got council approval when council was paying $0, I doubt they’ve invested much at all over the past decade outside of studies.

ScreamingViking · #**15039** Posted **Feb 10, 2021, 7:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

Look at these numbers. Is the lack of rail or lack of funding from higher levels of government really what's holding back transit in Hamilton?

Lack of political will. Transit is the priority city council loves to talk about, but more often than not the talk hasn't turned into action.

Plus transit is still area-rated. When the region was amalgamated into one city (from 6 municipalities in a two-tier government) concessions were made about the funding model for certain services, re: what property tax rates the former suburban municipalities paid compared to the "old" city of Hamilton. Area-rating has been removed for most of them in the 20 years since amalgamation happened, but not for transit. Environment Hamilton has a good summary of the issue.

This means the property taxes generated in the suburban wards do not contribute to the transit budget at the same rate as those of the "Hamilton" wards -- the "suburbs" only pay for the service they get. But it hinders transit growth in those wards, where much of the residential growth has occurred in the last two decades, because their councillors do not want to increase the tax rate for transit to pay for more service. "Hamilton" councillors have no incentive to direct more funds to the suburban areas to increase service, even though that may benefit the entire city's transit network and demand, because based on the rating scheme their constituents would pay relatively more for the improvements than the residents who will get the new service.

And some of the councillors argue against transit investments in the "old city" on the basis that it doesn't benefit their constituents. This is especially true of the lower city, where density and transit ridership are higher. It's been a core argument used by LRT opponents.

It's a broken system.

By contrast, nobody uses the same argument when a road improvement is proposed, anywhere in the city. It is frustrating.

rbt · #**15040** Posted **Feb 11, 2021, 3:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

From 2014 to 2019, Hamilton Street Railway's ridership declined from 22.3 million to 21.7 million.

...

Look at these numbers. Is the lack of rail or lack of funding from higher levels of government really what's holding back transit in Hamilton?

Hamilton suffers from population aging and children (who took transit) moving out leaving behind 2 older working adults rapidly approaching retirement (if not already partly retired). The number of occupants per household from 2001 to 2016 has decreased as well in most neighbourhoods. I think the 2021 census will show more of that in established housing stock.

An LRT through downtown, lined with new high-density new-family oriented housing stock, would likely provide a large boost to Hamilton's ridership in that corridor BUT until the older neighbourhoods turn-over residents, growth will be hard.

Suburbs in Toronto and 905 areas went through this type of period too with Lost/Greatest Gen residents. I expect Hamilton suburbs will be filled with yuppie Zoomers demolishing small houses for big ones by the 2040's, with very different expectations for city services from today's Boomer/X. They may not take transit either, but their kids will.