The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

There is a tunnel in Toronto's case which is built around Mark I cars' dimensions.

The tunnel is not the issue, its the curve at Kennedy Station

[Reecemartin]

Our latest video on the major work to upgrade another GO Station, this one Rutherford on the Barrie Line!

https://youtu.be/DBI5xkCwNW8

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The tunnel is not the issue, its the curve at Kennedy Station

The turn around track?


I should be surprised that such a relatively simple piece to either replace or remove the need for is an excuse for the institutional goal of tossing the SRT and not using the SRT ROW for LRT, but I am not.

[Nouvellecosse]

What In would prefer is for Kennedy to be reconfigured to straighten the curve allowing the subway to continue up the SRT alignment as far as the hydro corridor where it would run all the way to Ellesmere were it would leave the hydro corridor and run elevated to Morningside where it would terminate. The 9km surface extension would surely be less costly than the 6km underground extension proposed.

While it wouldn't directly each Scarborough Town center, it would be less than 2km away and if desired a short cut and cover spur could extend up McCowan which would only be 1.75km to the current McCowan station and from there the spur could run elevated another 1.7km to Sheppad. Even with the additional spur it would still likely be cheaper than the current proposal.

[Truenorth00]

The SRT corridor is going to be used for GO RER. Possibly with a Lawrence station.

And having the subway not reach STC is a non-starter in any discussion.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ The SRT corridor south of the main hydro corridor is more than wide enough for an additional set of tracks because of the Scarborough Hydro Greenspace, while the rest of the route would be on the main hydro corridor which is even wider. There is no bottle neck whatsoever. I think you may have misunderstood what I was suggesting.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Our latest video on the major work to upgrade another GO Station, this one Rutherford on the Barrie Line!

https://youtu.be/DBI5xkCwNW8

Thanks for the update.

Is there an actual date to when ML is finally going to announce the winning bid and hence the kind of trains and technology they are going to use. I am not talking about the next update but rather a real decision finally be announced or is this just on the ML never-never plan.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Thanks for the update.

Is there an actual date to when ML is finally going to announce the winning bid and hence the kind of trains and technology they are going to use. I am not talking about the next update but rather a real decision finally be announced or is this just on the ML never-never plan.

Its in progress. The trains will be overhead powered electric trains as we have known for some time!

[Reecemartin]

After checking out the Eglinton Crosstown Construction firsthand, I have some thoughts . . .

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Its in progress. The trains will be overhead powered electric trains as we have known for some time!

Well if catenary is a go, they damn well better get a move on.

Hopefully they go with the logical choice of single level trains to make the system a truly subway-lite one. This will mean an entire new FLEET of trains, maintenance and garage centres, substations, and hiring and training hundreds of drivers.

Whether you love catenary or hate it, one thing is certain, of the 3 options of catenary, battery, and hydrogen, catenary will require the most infrastructure and very importantly the most on the corridors themselves. This means building 250 km of catenary while service along the route will continue to increase which causes service disruptions and longer construction times. Metrolinx now has less than 5 years to do all of the above.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Its in progress. The trains will be overhead powered electric trains as we have known for some time!

If they have known this `for some time`then why haven`t they been building the catenary infrastructure all along as opposed to going back and doing it later......... obscenely bad planning and more time consuming and expensive.

Building needed infrastructure is always cheaper and easier to do if all the needs are built into the original design as opposed to added onto later. It is vastly cheaper to install elevators, as an example, when done in the original construction as opposed to having to go back and do it later.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

If they have known this `for some time`then why haven`t they been building the catenary infrastructure all along as opposed to going back and doing it later......... obscenely bad planning and more time consuming and expensive.

Building needed infrastructure is always cheaper and easier to do if all the needs are built into the original design as opposed to added onto later. It is vastly cheaper to install elevators, as an example, when done in the original construction as opposed to having to go back and do it later.

They'll probably P3 the whole thing and do the new fleet, maintenance of the fleet, and building the supply system at the same time as part of the same contract. If they're adventurous they'll go tech neutral, and then we won't have to deal with people complaining for 40 years that they chose the worst system.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

If they have known this `for some time`then why haven`t they been building the catenary infrastructure all along as opposed to going back and doing it later......... obscenely bad planning and more time consuming and expensive.

Building needed infrastructure is always cheaper and easier to do if all the needs are built into the original design as opposed to added onto later. It is vastly cheaper to install elevators, as an example, when done in the original construction as opposed to having to go back and do it later.

. . . But they have been, projects have been including foundations for catenary support poles and clearances for half a decade . . .

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

They'll probably P3 the whole thing and do the new fleet, maintenance of the fleet, and building the supply system at the same time as part of the same contract. If they're adventurous they'll go tech neutral, and then we won't have to deal with people complaining for 40 years that they chose the worst system.

As you probably know this is literally what they are doing and after quickly realizing Hydrogen was a nonstarter OCS was defacto the tech of choice.

[Reecemartin]

Our latest video covers the progress at GO Transit's Unionville Regional Rail Station where the current single platform station is getting two new platforms and bidirectional service, Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/FNyT99bG-dg

[ssiguy]

Putting in some foundations and building the infrastructure are 2 different things.

Just go look at the Eglinton Line. They are building all the track AND putting up the catenary at the same time. Why?...........because it is far less expensive and disruptive than building the tracks and stations and then go back and build the electric infrastructure when it's all done. If Metrolinx had built the catenary infrastructure all along the routes that have been improved, half of the system would already be done.

This is why city's don't use the ass-backwards planning of ML. Normal cities determine the types of trains and technology BEFORE they go out to tender. This is why Montreal's REM got built so fast, they knew EXACTLY what they wanted before construction and not after and why Montreal will have it's system up and running before Toronto even puts a single pole in the ground.

It is patently obscene that after 6 years of construction and endless environmental reviews and public consultation, Torontonians still have absolutely no idea what kind of trains they are {supposedly} getting and what form of technology they are going to use. This is why Torontonians rightfully view GO electrification with a collective 'blah'.......they'll believe it when they see it and so far they have seen nothing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This is why city's don't use the ass-backwards planning of ML. Normal cities determine the types of trains and technology BEFORE they go out to tender. This is why Montreal's REM got built so fast, they knew EXACTLY what they wanted before construction and not after and why Montreal will have it's system up and running before Toronto even puts a single pole in the ground.

So, I think you fundamentally misunderstand what happens when you do a technologically neutral tender. It takes the same amount of time, you just do things in another order. Since you need to define your output specifications first, you avoid having all sorts of political interference to add expensive things in later. And you avoid missing out on options that could save you a lot of money if you look at projects from a full lifecycle point of view.



Going piecemeal would have likely meant locking in on a specific technology and implementation when the Up Express was built (or potentially replacing it if you chose poorly). It could have also totally kiboshed the project. I'd bet that due to operational purposes you'd rapidly see that you'd have to build out a far more infrastructure around Union than you'd initially expect on a back of a napkin basis. I also think you'd have plenty of stranded infrastructure, without a cohesive plan as to where you'd put substations. You'd have some serious problems too in that for a 20 km line you have potentially quite different optimal solutions, for things like how frequently you want substations. Let alone standards for parts of the system where you need to share ROW with common carrier freight.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Putting in some foundations and building the infrastructure are 2 different things.

Just go look at the Eglinton Line. They are building all the track AND putting up the catenary at the same time. Why?...........because it is far less expensive and disruptive than building the tracks and stations and then go back and build the electric infrastructure when it's all done. If Metrolinx had built the catenary infrastructure all along the routes that have been improved, half of the system would already be done.

This is why city's don't use the ass-backwards planning of ML. Normal cities determine the types of trains and technology BEFORE they go out to tender. This is why Montreal's REM got built so fast, they knew EXACTLY what they wanted before construction and not after and why Montreal will have it's system up and running before Toronto even puts a single pole in the ground.

It is patently obscene that after 6 years of construction and endless environmental reviews and public consultation, Torontonians still have absolutely no idea what kind of trains they are {supposedly} getting and what form of technology they are going to use. This is why Torontonians rightfully view GO electrification with a collective 'blah'.......they'll believe it when they see it and so far they have seen nothing.

Except we do know the trains and technology as I have mentioned. Theres a number of reasons why the approach you have suggested would not have worked - in part because the cost of doing everything at once would not have been reasonable - nor would the scope of work, and based on the way operations etc is planned GO decided to slowly do everything instead of doing a line by line approach which has it's merits and negatives.

Of course they can do something like Eglinton or REM in one phase, the total cost is waaaaay waaaay lower - when electrification is said and done you will be looking at something 8-10x the cost of the original REM line.

[ssiguy]

I’m ML has had more than enough money to electrify the system as they went along. The problem is that they spent a fortune on building mega parking garages.

[J.OT13]

It has been 2 years since the Westboro bus crash claimed 3 lives and seriously injured 23. It was the second deadly crash involving a double decker in just over 5 years.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/second-anniversary-westboro-crash-1.5866470

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I’m ML has had more than enough money to electrify the system as they went along. The problem is that they spent a fortune on building mega parking garages.

Having infrastructure which generally could not be used is not a good way to spend money. This work has been going on for over a decade, without electrified mainlines and yards its going to be very hard to run electric trains.