ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by cybele

And we Republicans aren't all that terrible.

:babyeat:

[sunking1056]

[QUOTE=cybele;4414313]I think it's more walkable than many people realize. As to the shopping, all I can say is that if the Midtown Mile ever became as jumping as Perimeter Mall, we'd really have an urban revitalization to crow about. /QUOTE]

Just because shitty suburbia is popular and "more walkable than many people realize" doesn't mean it ceases to be shitty suburbia.

[jew4life4948]

If they can save money by moving to Perimeter to help sustain them as a paper, who are we to object. They only occupied 30% of that derelict building and plan on keeping an Intown News Office anyway. And if anything Perimeter is probably more central to their audience. [Higher readership in the northern suburbs than southern]

The Ann Arbor newspaper recently shut down, so at this point anything that can promote the longevity of the AJC I'm all for. If the AJC was shutting down due to an inability to maintain their lease/pay property taxes I'm sure we'd all be boohooing.

Yes, there is some perverse symbolism in this. But unless we want this to be a forum dedicated to whining and scrutiny instead of creativity and ideas then I suggest we start to appear more optimistic.

[NativeAtlantan]

Originally Posted by cybele

I get the feeling that many people are down on the Perimeter. Yet it's already the city's largest concentration of office space and the retail and residential sectors are amazingly strong, too. Excellent transit access and proximity to many of our best neighborhoods. What's not to like?

Is Perimeter bigger than DT and MT combined? That seems to be the more appropriate comparison.

[cybele]

All the hate toward the Perimeter area really saddens me. I would simply point out that it's not there because anyone held a gun to anybody's head, but because people wanted it. It's as real and vital as any other part of the city.

Instead of cutting it down, why not recognize its incredible potential and apply some good urban principles to it like they're doing with Tysons Corner? The Perimeter district already has great bones.

Plan to Remake Tysons Corner Envisions Dense Urban Center

[jew4life4948]

Originally Posted by cybele

All the hate toward the Perimeter area really saddens me. I would simply point out that it's not there because anyone held a gun to anybody's head, but because people wanted it. It's as real and vital as any other part of the city.

Instead of cutting it down, why not recognize its incredible potential and apply some good urban principles to it like they're doing with Tysons Corner? The Perimeter district already has great bones.

Plan to Remake Tysons Corner Envisions Dense Urban Center

Didn't their CBD erect a pedestrian/bicycle bridge over 285 in record time?

[cybele]

Originally Posted by NativeAtlantan

Is Perimeter bigger than DT and MT combined? That seems to be the more appropriate comparison.

Well maybe I'm wrong about that.

The latest numbers I've seen show the size of the sub-markets as follows:

Northwest Atlanta 31.8
Central Perimeter 28.4
North Fulton 24.7
Downtown 23.3
Northlake 19.2
Midtown 18.7
Northeast Atlanta 18.4
Buckhead 17.8
South Atlanta 9.9

[NativeAtlantan]

it's actually a major bridge with four lanes, i believe...

[NativeAtlantan]

Yeah, based on those numbers Central Perimeter isn't even close to DT/MT

[cybele]

Yep, that bridge is not bad. It has good sidewalks and bike lanes and you just drive right onto it instead of going up a bunch of ramps.



The Perimeter area has MARTA stations (Medical Center, Dunwoody and Sandy Springs) about every 1/2 mile, I think, so there are some possibilities there.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by cybele

All the hate toward the Perimeter area really saddens me. I would simply point out that it's not there because anyone held a gun to anybody's head, but because people wanted it. It's as real and vital as any other part of the city.

Not really. I mean, sure, that is where people "want" to work, but the amount that these counties can give away in the form of tax breaks, zoning variances, etc. is pretty huge, especially since most of the infrastructure required for these projects is handled by the federal and state governments (ie the interstates). Intown areas, by contrast, have limited tools at their disposal to lure tenants - and one of the primary drivers of intown growth in other cities (a vibrant urban core) is still nascent in Atlanta. Plus, the city is paying the full cost for infrastructure, maintenance, and services for people who work in the city or drive through it, but don't pay taxes there.

It is a popular sentiment that the "free market" led to the sprawling development pattern you see in Atlanta today. The truth is, though, that it was really bad policy, racism (yes, I said it), and too many different municipalities and counties vying for resources. And all of those continue to be problems today.

[cybele]

Well yes and no. Racism has obviously played a huge role in the shaping of Atlanta. But you can't lay all the blame on the Perimeter area. Intown Atlanta jumped on the freeway bandwagon back in the 1940s and has embraced it as thoroughly as just about any American city. It's not as if the suburbs were bent on destroying the city -- downtown business leaders, politicians and planners were the ones championing I-75, I-85 and I-20, and later I-285. Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young and Fulton Commissioner Michael Lomax led the charge for GA 400 and the city's planning department pushed hard for it, too.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well yes and no. Racism has obviously played a huge role in the shaping of Atlanta. But you can't lay all the blame on the Perimeter area. Intown Atlanta jumped on the freeway bandwagon back in the 1940s and has embraced it as thoroughly as just about any American city. It's not as if the suburbs were bent on destroying the city -- downtown business leaders, politicians and planners were the ones championing I-75, I-85 and I-20, and later I-285. Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young and Fulton Commissioner Michael Lomax led the charge for GA 400 and the city's planning department pushed hard for it, too.

honestly, wouldn't you say the state had much more input, influence and direction on the interstate and it's path through and impact on atlanta?

the interstates and the cities they connected were inevitible based on federal highway strategy, but i think it's quite a reach to say intown atlanta embraced the freeway as if there was any say so in the matter, regardless of what atlanta civic leaders advocated at the time. i was always under the impression that the feds and state drove the interstates impact on atlanta rather than the other way around.

yet, as gttx suggests, the interstates simply provided an affordable and convenient way for affluence and whites to escape and distance themselves from the black population of atlanta.

[boomtown]

Wow...hard to believe.

Thursday, August 20, 2009
DOT grant application to include rail projects
Atlanta Business Chronicle - by David Williams Staff Writer

The Georgia Department of Transportation will include commuter rail projects in an application for a $1.5 billion pot of federal grant money.
The State Transportation Board instructed the agency’s staff Thursday to put rail projects on its wish list for TIGER (Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery) grants, part of the federal economic stimulus program, after learning that the department’s original list contained only highway projects.
"We don’t ever consider (rail projects) as part of our process,” board member Emory McClinton of Atlanta complained during a staff update on the DOT’s plans for federal stimulus funds. “At some point, we have to change this mentality.”
Deputy Commissioner of Transportation Gerald Ross said the grant program requires that projects be far enough through the planning stages that they can be finished by February 2012, an easier qualification for highway projects to meet.
However, he agreed to add rail to the DOT’s grant application, which must be submitted by Sept. 15.
Commuter rail projects being planned by the DOT include rail lines linking Atlanta with Athens and Griffin and a multi-modal terminal to be built in downtown Atlanta.
The agency is seeking grants for four highway projects, including additional lanes for Interstate 20 in DeKalb County and I-75 in Henry County.

[jew4life4948]

Originally Posted by boomtown

Wow...hard to believe.


"We don’t ever consider (rail projects) as part of our process,” board member Emory McClinton of Atlanta complained during a staff update on the DOT’s plans for federal stimulus funds.

Well, I think we found the missing link here!

So the Department of Transportation never thinks of rail projects, that explains so much. I wonder who they expected the burden to fall onto.

Hmmmm, if only there were a department mandated by the State and Federal Government to construct, maintain and coordinate various types of inter- and intra- modes of travel within a specified area and effectively manage communications and ideas in-line with various levels of local governments within Georgia.

Oh what could an agency with these sorts of responsibilities possibly be called?

.......................

[gttx]

Originally Posted by jew4life4948

Well, I think we found the missing link here!

So the Department of Transportation never thinks of rail projects, that explains so much. I wonder who they expected the burden to fall onto.

Hmmmm, if only there were a department mandated by the State and Federal Government to construct, maintain and coordinate various types of inter- and intra- modes of travel within a specified area and effectively manage communications and ideas in-line with various levels of local governments within Georgia.

Oh what could an agency with these sorts of responsibilities possibly be called?

.......................

rhymes with bruschetta?

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well maybe I'm wrong about that.

The latest numbers I've seen show the size of the sub-markets as follows:

Northwest Atlanta 31.8
Central Perimeter 28.4
North Fulton 24.7
Downtown 23.3
Northlake 19.2
Midtown 18.7
Northeast Atlanta 18.4
Buckhead 17.8
South Atlanta 9.9

What are the units of these numbers?

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

What are the units of these numbers?

million square feet

Originally Posted by NativeAtlantan

Is Perimeter bigger than DT and MT combined? That seems to be the more appropriate comparison.

In land area its actually closer to size of the MT, DT and Buckhead office markets combined so the term "concentration" in concentration of office space is applied somewhat loosely in this case.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

honestly, wouldn't you say the state had much more input, influence and direction on the interstate and it's path through and impact on atlanta?

I'd say the city was an active and enthusiastic promoter of freeways and their paths through the city. They were by no means imposed on the city against its will.

That's true at least of the politicians, businessmen, planners and real estate developers who dominated city politics. Many African American communities were literally run over by the city's freeway builders. These massive roads were also used as physical barriers to prevent blacks from moving into white neighborhoods.

yet, as gttx suggests, the interstates simply provided an affordable and convenient way for affluence and whites to escape and distance themselves from the black population of atlanta.

The idea that race played a huge role in the building of Atlanta's freeways and other planning decisions is more than merely a suggestion -- it's well documented fact. That unfortunate story has been the subject of many detailed studies. (See the excellent books on this subject by Larry Keating, Ronald Bayor, David Sjoquist and many others).

But it's more complicated than that. City leaders believed that running freeways through the middle of the city was vital to its health and long term survival. They obviously miscalculated the degree to which residents would use them to flee the city.

Fortunately a substantial amount of affluence remained within the city. Pockets of wealth (mainly on the Northside but in a few other spots) stayed put and gave us things like the Symphony, the Museum, the Aquarium, our pro sports teams, our universities, big league real estate development, and similar urban amenities.

Yes, the interstates were certainly federally driven, but the city's eagerness for freeways predated that by years. The Lochner plan, which created the Downtown Connector and laid out the other freeways, dates from the 1940s. And the city pressed hard to create other intra-city freeways (Lakewood, I-485, GA 400) well into the 1980s and 90s.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

:babyeat:

Why the stereotyping? We may be the one's coaching your kid's soccer team. And we can be a ton of fun at a backyard barbecue.