The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by scryer

We need images because this is pretty big for Montreal :



I already thought that the REM system was going to push Montreal into having the best Metro system (and even the best transit system taking into account its commuter rail network) in Canada... this Eastern phase 2 will keep Montreal in that top spot for a long time.

What's specifically fascinating to me is that it almost appears that Montreal is completely abandoning extending its heavy metro in favour of developing its automated light metro systems.

Make it happen, Montreal!! Vancouver - let's catch up!

YES, thanks!

...And it *seems like* that the final paths of the Tramway system in Quebec city will be announced on January 2021. The project is approved by the government of course, but there have been some disagreements between the city and the government of Quebec. Let's put some hope on 2021 then! Quebec city's mayor (who didnt say if he will present himself for a 5th term yet) said that this project must be "cast into concrete" (in the sense, nobody can't step back after that) before he's leaving the mayor's office.

[Chadillaccc]

That map makes me literally wet.

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That map makes me literally wet.

It's one of those things that is missing me the most from my hometown : a good transit system

[ChildishGavino]

Originally Posted by FrAnKs

It's one of those things that is missing me the most from my hometown : a good transit system

I can really relate to that. Hamilton Quebec City

All we've got to look forward to is this concept plan from 13 years ago

[ue]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That map makes me literally wet.

I don't think people realize how gross and I-live-in-my-mother's-basement these sort of comments around maps and skylines sound.

[ue]

Originally Posted by scryer

We need images because this is pretty big for Montreal :



I already thought that the REM system was going to push Montreal into having the best Metro system (and even the best transit system taking into account its commuter rail network) in Canada... this Eastern phase 2 will keep Montreal in that top spot for a long time.

What's specifically fascinating to me is that it almost appears that Montreal is completely abandoning extending its heavy metro in favour of developing its automated light metro systems.

Make it happen, Montreal!! Vancouver - let's catch up!

Is this going in place of the Pink Line? I think it's not bad. It connects with a big Cegep and has nodes that hook up with with existing and future metro lines (like the Blue and Green lines). I still think it could be better. The routing along the riverfront -- I understand why they are going with that -- but it doesn't make the most of ridership the way going down Rue Ontario would. Not only do you literally have no urban development to the south of where the line is to go (and thus you have half the geography to work with to pull riders from), it also skirts the edge of the riverfront communities it does go by. I also dislike that it doesn't really meet up with Berri-UQAM for transfers like the other lines do.

But it makes sense that Montreal is doing these massive expansions using light rail REM technology. Having an underground and expensive heavy rail metro like the existing system uses makes more sense in dense, central areas. Have a metro line going down St-Laurent, down Bernard/Rosemont, do a Green Line extension to LaSalle, have a line down Sherbrooke from Loyola Campus to Olympic Park. Etc. Don't do that in the West Island or South Shore or out to Boisbriand. Use light rail technology for that.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by ue

Is this going in place of the Pink Line? I think it's not bad. It connects with a big Cegep and has nodes that hook up with with existing and future metro lines (like the Blue and Green lines). I still think it could be better. The routing along the riverfront -- I understand why they are going with that -- but it doesn't make the most of ridership the way going down Rue Ontario would. Not only do you literally have no urban development to the south of where the line is to go (and thus you have half the geography to work with to pull riders from), it also skirts the edge of the riverfront communities it does go by. I also dislike that it doesn't really meet up with Berri-UQAM for transfers like the other lines do.

But it makes sense that Montreal is doing these massive expansions using light rail REM technology. Having an underground and expensive heavy rail metro like the existing system uses makes more sense in dense, central areas. Have a metro line going down St-Laurent, down Bernard/Rosemont, do a Green Line extension to LaSalle, have a line down Sherbrooke from Loyola Campus to Olympic Park. Etc. Don't do that in the West Island or South Shore or out to Boisbriand. Use light rail technology for that.

They want to create new industrial, commercial and residential districts on unused vacant lots in the east end of the island. The last remaining lots available are in the east end in Montréal East.

[Greetingsfromcanada]

Originally Posted by scryer

What's specifically fascinating to me is that it almost appears that Montreal is completely abandoning extending its heavy metro in favour of developing its automated light metro systems.

The term "light rail" means next to nothing. A grade separated train that travels up 100km/h shares a lot more with heavy rail than it does with an at grade Light Rail. I've seen this in a globe and mail article too, which mocked Surrey's skytrain expansion for being out of date, while putting the REM up to be this modern sleek LRT system of the future. This despite them clearly being the exact same thing in practice. In my experience, it's just become a buzzword to feel modern while, at times, shielding subpar transit from criticism like Surrey LRT was

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by ChildishGavino

I can really relate to that. Hamilton Quebec City

All we've got to look forward to is this concept plan from 13 years ago

What is it? And I can assume that Buses is all what Hamilton have at the moment as a "structuring" system?

Our cities do both look alike about that and even if we have a Tramway system in the oven right now, I'll believe it when I'll see it on the table ready to eat (Politics, you know...don't take anything for granted or you'll be dissapointed!)

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by ue

Is this going in place of the Pink Line? I think it's not bad. It connects with a big Cegep and has nodes that hook up with with existing and future metro lines (like the Blue and Green lines). I still think it could be better. The routing along the riverfront -- I understand why they are going with that -- but it doesn't make the most of ridership the way going down Rue Ontario would. Not only do you literally have no urban development to the south of where the line is to go (and thus you have half the geography to work with to pull riders from), it also skirts the edge of the riverfront communities it does go by. I also dislike that it doesn't really meet up with Berri-UQAM for transfers like the other lines do.

I agree that it's unfortunate that it won't be connecting to Berri-UQAM, but I think it's probably good for it to be hugging the river rather than directly serving urban areas that already have access to the existing metro. For lines that are meant to serve outer areas beyond the existing metro system, you don't want the inner parts of the system to be too congested with short distance travelers who are only going 1/10 of it's length while it runs mostly empty the rest of the way. Sure it can handle a few inner-urbanites, but if you attract too many you'll risk not having room for the outer-destination riders the line is mainly intended to serve. I think that's what you'd get with stops on Rue Ontario (which is only around 1/2km from the Green line) meaning you'd spend a lot more money to specifically induce a less desirable outcome. It's a balancing act since you want most long distance riders to be seated for obvious comfort reasons so the train definitely has some standing room for people going short distances. It's just a matter of how much.

[Reecemartin]

• Video Link

[MalcolmTucker]

I've laid out REM and REM 2 on an old google subway map I was able to copy. I think I've placed stations and track reasonably accurately from the high-res maps on the press kit - the only one that was difficult was the CEGEP - the map did not have obvious reference points.



Take a look.

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

• Video Link

Video link isnt working

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

• Video Link

Seems to be working for me

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by scryer

We need images because this is pretty big for Montreal :



I already thought that the REM system was going to push Montreal into having the best Metro system (and even the best transit system taking into account its commuter rail network) in Canada... this Eastern phase 2 will keep Montreal in that top spot for a long time.

What's specifically fascinating to me is that it almost appears that Montreal is completely abandoning extending its heavy metro in favour of developing its automated light metro systems.

Make it happen, Montreal!! Vancouver - let's catch up!

Vancouver can't/wont expand it's commuter rail beyond what it has had for over 25 years.

Originally Posted by Greetingsfromcanada

The term "light rail" means next to nothing. A grade separated train that travels up 100km/h shares a lot more with heavy rail than it does with an at grade Light Rail. I've seen this in a globe and mail article too, which mocked Surrey's skytrain expansion for being out of date, while putting the REM up to be this modern sleek LRT system of the future. This despite them clearly being the exact same thing in practice. In my experience, it's just become a buzzword to feel modern while, at times, shielding subpar transit from criticism like Surrey LRT was

The label of LRT annoys me. For example, to a layman, the TTC streetcar lines seem like LRT, but people argue they aren't. Some will say that the Skytrain is an LRT.

Metro and Subway annoy me too. Technically, anything buried is a subway/metro, or is it?

I much prefer RT. Rapid transit. If I were to hear it, I think it is faster than bus along the same route.

[ue]

^ RT is what they call the Winnipeg BRT, so not necessarily...

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

They want to create new industrial, commercial and residential districts on unused vacant lots in the east end of the island. The last remaining lots available are in the east end in Montréal East.

So we're once again using massive transit infrastructure projects not as a tool to get to and from places people already live and work and so forth in but rather using it as a gentrifier and a tool to make developers more money by spurring redevelopment in industrial areas. This isn't to say I don't recognize the usefulness of redevelopment, particularly of brownfield sites that aren't really being utilized and making more of the built environment dense and useful, but focusing on future development that will likely make the area more attractive and expensive, rather than looking at where people already are (which could still use infill, and there'd still be large brownfield sites in Viauville) is a bit of a problem with the ways in which transit is currently financed and planned.

I also think that Viau station would have been a better transfer point than Assomption, but it isn't the worst thing, where it currently is planned.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I agree that it's unfortunate that it won't be connecting to Berri-UQAM, but I think it's probably good for it to be hugging the river rather than directly serving urban areas that already have access to the existing metro. For lines that are meant to serve outer areas beyond the existing metro system, you don't want the inner parts of the system to be too congested with short distance travelers who are only going 1/10 of it's length while it runs mostly empty the rest of the way. Sure it can handle a few inner-urbanites, but if you attract too many you'll risk not having room for the outer-destination riders the line is mainly intended to serve. I think that's what you'd get with stops on Rue Ontario (which is only around 1/2km from the Green line) meaning you'd spend a lot more money to specifically induce a less desirable outcome. It's a balancing act since you want most long distance riders to be seated for obvious comfort reasons so the train definitely has some standing room for people going short distances. It's just a matter of how much.

All fair points. It's only past Pie-IX that Ontario really gets more than a short walk to the Green Line. That being said, the REM-East extension that continues east down Rue Hochelaga is also not exactly far away from the existing Green Line until it connects and passes Honore-Beaugrand. Also with this investment, I find it less likely that an LRT, metro, streetcar, or anything other than a bus will go down Rue Ontario, as the argument will be that buses are 'enough' and there's proximity to the Green Line and REM-East, despite the fact that REM-East will, for basically the entire section between Downtown and Honore-Beaugrand EXCEPT when it is in Hochelga between Davidson and Viau, be in proximity to the Green Line.

That being said, I don't think this routing is all bad, just that it is far from a dream like what seem to be indicating in the comments. With the REM already under construction, Blue Line extension to Galeries d'Anjou, and the Pie-IX BRT, I think this will both complement and create a more comprehensive rapid transit system for the eastern island's inner suburban areas.

My only hope is that there will be investment (beyond the SW tram which feels... mostly redundant) in inner urban areas beyond funneling people to Gare Centrale or Berri-UQAM. A line down St-Urbain/Parc and then follow the rail ROW up to the Garment District before turning down Henri-Bourassa and connecting with the Orange Line would be good. Again, a line down Sherbrooke from Loyola to Parc Olympique would be nice. A connector line that follows the ROW that goes from Hochelaga (near Prefontaine), around Angus and de Lorimier to connect at Rosemont before heading down Bernard and meeting with UdeM would be great. Something servicing the plex heavy inner eastern city, with a line down St-Joseph East or Rosemont would be wonderful. Add in a more direct RER line to Trudeau Airport that uses the existing commuter line to Dorval, South Shore RER and Yellow Line extensions, and closing the Orange Line loop in Laval, perhaps with an LRT extension to Carrefour Laval, and I think Montreal would be pretty set.

[Peggerino]

Originally Posted by ue

^ RT is what they call the Winnipeg BRT, so not necessarily...



So we're once again using massive transit infrastructure projects not as a tool to get to and from places people already live and work and so forth in but rather using it as a gentrifier and a tool to make developers more money by spurring redevelopment in industrial areas. This isn't to say I don't recognize the usefulness of redevelopment, particularly of brownfield sites that aren't really being utilized and making more of the built environment dense and useful, but focusing on future development that will likely make the area more attractive and expensive, rather than looking at where people already are (which could still use infill, and there'd still be large brownfield sites in Viauville) is a bit of a problem with the ways in which transit is currently financed and planned.

I also think that Viau station would have been a better transfer point than Assomption, but it isn't the worst thing, where it currently is planned.



All fair points. It's only past Pie-IX that Ontario really gets more than a short walk to the Green Line. That being said, the REM-East extension that continues east down Rue Hochelaga is also not exactly far away from the existing Green Line until it connects and passes Honore-Beaugrand. Also with this investment, I find it less likely that an LRT, metro, streetcar, or anything other than a bus will go down Rue Ontario, as the argument will be that buses are 'enough' and there's proximity to the Green Line and REM-East, despite the fact that REM-East will, for basically the entire section between Downtown and Honore-Beaugrand EXCEPT when it is in Hochelga between Davidson and Viau, be in proximity to the Green Line.

That being said, I don't think this routing is all bad, just that it is far from a dream like what seem to be indicating in the comments. With the REM already under construction, Blue Line extension to Galeries d'Anjou, and the Pie-IX BRT, I think this will both complement and create a more comprehensive rapid transit system for the eastern island's inner suburban areas.

My only hope is that there will be investment (beyond the SW tram which feels... mostly redundant) in inner urban areas beyond funneling people to Gare Centrale or Berri-UQAM. A line down St-Urbain/Parc and then follow the rail ROW up to the Garment District before turning down Henri-Bourassa and connecting with the Orange Line would be good. Again, a line down Sherbrooke from Loyola to Parc Olympique would be nice. A connector line that follows the ROW that goes from Hochelaga (near Prefontaine), around Angus and de Lorimier to connect at Rosemont before heading down Bernard and meeting with UdeM would be great. Something servicing the plex heavy inner eastern city, with a line down St-Joseph East or Rosemont would be wonderful. Add in a more direct RER line to Trudeau Airport that uses the existing commuter line to Dorval, South Shore RER and Yellow Line extensions, and closing the Orange Line loop in Laval, perhaps with an LRT extension to Carrefour Laval, and I think Montreal would be pretty set.

I think your critiques are on point. Another area underserved is that which is east of the Orange line in the plateau (like around Avenue d'Lorimer or Rue d'Iberville). The urban form is pretty much identical to that which the Orange line and it would for sure be an out of the park home run for ridership if something ever got built. I think the Pink line would have covered this area but look like the REM probably won't. It would be cool if one day some RT served that area between the Orange Line, REM, and south of like Rosemont and north of Mont Royal. This area is probably my favourite part of Montreal also so I'm a little biased towards them.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Peggerino

I think your critiques are on point. Another area underserved is that which is east of the Orange line in the plateau (like around Avenue d'Lorimer or Rue d'Iberville). The urban form is pretty much identical to that which the Orange line and it would for sure be an out of the park home run for ridership if something ever got built. I think the Pink line would have covered this area but look like the REM probably won't. It would be cool if one day some RT served that area between the Orange Line, REM, and south of like Rosemont and north of Mont Royal. This area is probably my favourite part of Montreal also so I'm a little biased towards them.

I agree... much of the plex-heavy inner-eastern Montreal neighbourhoods (incl the eastern Plateau) which is already dense and in an environment that works well with high frequency rapid transit is underserved. Again, politicians are chasing suburban commuter voters as it looks good because it creates jobs, reduces rush hour congestion, and maybe even helps gentrify a few areas (literally the REM PDF linked earlier markets the line as doing these things). Not to say that suburbanites shouldn't have transit that is good and accessible -- especially for tackling entrenched car-centric designs -- which are worse out there -- but if it's just getting people downtown for 9-5 jobs, then it's really just being used for one thing, rather than as a means to ditch cars and actually do something about the harm cars cause on the built environment and to our communities. People in existing urban environments conducive to active transportation will more likely use rapid transit regularly and not drive at all.

Anyways... ideally, in addition to what is already planned with REM, the SW tramway, the Pie-IX BRT, and the blue and orange line extensions... I'd do the following (in no actual order)
- continue the REM East across Downtown elevated and then have it follow the ROW that exists up to Dorval and have that as a second connection to Trudeau Airport
- utilize the existing ROW that goes in an arc from Hochelaga to Mile-Ex via Angus and turn that into a light rail line with REM technology. Have it start at the planned Rue Davidson REM station, connect with the Green Line a block west of Prefontaine, and loop around until Rosemont, at which point it can continue down Bernard underground and run parallel to the Blue Line until UdeM. It'd be a circulator that connects existing corridors and lines as a Downtown rail by-pass and gives new access to the UdeM from other parts of the island
- Have another BRT or perhaps light rail down either Papineau, de Lorimier, or d'Iberville between the Notre Dame RER and Jarry
- Metro line that goes from Guy and St-Catherine, down St Catherine until St-Urbain, which continues north before curving underneath Parc Jeanne-Mance and aligning with Parc. Continue down Parc until it meets with the commuter rail ROW near St-Zotique Ouest and follow that past existing Gare Chabanel to Henri Bourassa and have the line go east down that until existing Henri-Bourassa metro stop on the Orange Line.
- potentially upgrade the Pie-IX BRT to an LRT and have it cross the Rivieres Prairies to Laval, have it go down Bv de la Concorde, meet with Station Montmorency, head down le Corb, then down le Carrefour and have a station at Carrefour Laval. This would fulfill a spur line to Carrefour Laval from the Orange line.
- close the Orange Line loop
- Green Line extension to LaSalle
- either Metro or LRT down Sherbrooke from Loyola to Pie-IX
- a streetcar loop that goes down Rue Rachel and Av Mont-Royal between d'Iberville and Parc.
- RER-type line that goes from UdeM, underground Outremont, via roughly Chemin de la Cote-Sainte-Catherine until St-Joseph, and then down St-Joseph (either above ground or street level) until Pie-IX and then turn down Pie-IX and share the line with it until Notre Dame.
- maybe something like BRT or LRT down Cote-Vertu/Sauve
- Light rail down Taschereau Blvd from existing Longueuil yellow line station to Candiac/Bv Montcalm on the South Shore
- this is a bit more fantasy but... perhaps continue the Pie-IX upgraded REM across the St-Lawrence and down Chambly through Longueuil
- Yellow line extension to Chambly
- BRT down Saint-Martin in Laval

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by ue

I agree... much of the plex-heavy inner-eastern Montreal neighbourhoods (incl the eastern Plateau) which is already dense and in an environment that works well with high frequency rapid transit is underserved. Again, politicians are chasing suburban commuter voters as it looks good because it creates jobs, reduces rush hour congestion, and maybe even helps gentrify a few areas (literally the REM PDF linked earlier markets the line as doing these things). Not to say that suburbanites shouldn't have transit that is good and accessible -- especially for tackling entrenched car-centric designs -- which are worse out there -- but if it's just getting people downtown for 9-5 jobs, then it's really just being used for one thing, rather than as a means to ditch cars and actually do something about the harm cars cause on the built environment and to our communities. People in existing urban environments conducive to active transportation will more likely use rapid transit regularly and not drive at all.

You bring up very good points which have bothered me for a while.

Most people are understandably in awe over such a massive project and, as a public transit professional and proponent, I find it very difficult to oppose such huge investments in any way.

However, I just find that Montreal could do... so much better with so much money ($10B of which probably half will come from the federal and provincial governments). Right now, what CDPQ is proposing is a suburban shuttle (I’d say it looks like such with 40m platforms and two-car trains) cutting through our Downtown core and doubling service for 12km along the Green line (which is not overcrowded to the point that we need a relief line - the Orange line is far worse in that regard). It does a decent job serving the relatively dense neighborhood of Saint-Léonard and part of Montreal-North but it doesn’t go to RDP, yet it goes to Pointe-aux-Trembles which has lower density and higher land vacancy (more development opportunities for CDPQ Infra).

However, despite the Northeast branch being connected to the Blue line, it feels lile this project is a standalone, in the fact that people from the far East will still need to make two transfers before reaching the Blue line, and the connection at Berri-UQÀM with the other three Metro lines looks to be anything but seamless. It’s great if your destination is Place Ville-Marie or the Bell Centre though.

I wonder if anybody at CDPQ Infra actually looked at the demand for the East and wondered if they needed something other than a Downtown shuttle. Like, I don’t know, better access to the existing Metro network via LRT or a structural mode on Henri-Bourassa? Sure, Downtown is the major employment centre for the region, but I bet you a lot of people in the East End don’t actually work there. Also, there’s the 9 to 5 thing you brought up where we are building transit to make going Downtown easier for people instead of seeing where people actually go for other trips.

Anyway, I’m sure this project will cut travel times for thousands of people and infer a modal shift which is what we want to see with major transit projects. So I’m not entirely condemning the whole REM2, but I remain on the fence about this one because it’s much less structural than the REM is. It also doesn’t solve the biggest problem of our region: the overcrowding of the Orange line’s east branch and the lack of good public transit options in dense, walkable areas like Rosemont, LaSalle, NDG and most of Montreal-North. The CAQ’s electors are getting a nice Christmas gift though...

[ChildishGavino]

Originally Posted by FrAnKs

What is it? And I can assume that Buses is all what Hamilton have at the moment as a "structuring" system?

Our cities do both look alike about that and even if we have a Tramway system in the oven right now, I'll believe it when I'll see it on the table ready to eat (Politics, you know...don't take anything for granted or you'll be dissapointed!)

The B.L.A.S.T. network is an RT plan devised to connect all the population centres of the county 13 years ago which right now doesn’t... really exist. The Lines B & A exist as express services, though not as long as in this map. The ideal is to have all of these lines as LRTs, but look at what’s been going on to just get one built

I think both our cities are on the cusp of beginning construction (hell, pre-construction had begun here up until a year ago) but provincial politics always get in the way, don’t they?

Course, that’s not to say our city council’s been agreeable either...