DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I might need to email Jill so they can bring this fight to the legislature next year, flip the "rules of the road" presumption statewide. There is no way to do a ban. You just have to sign "No RTOR" at every intersection. Practically, maybe that's the same thing. But it's more costly and annoying.

I think the city would need to sign each intersection anyway. RTOR is so deeply embedded in society's collective car-brain that a change in the law alone wouldn't be enough to enforce the ban. Today, where RTOR is not permitted and signs are posted, drivers routinely ignore the signs as it is. Adding automated enforcement cameras would help enforce RTOR and red-light running, which is equally pervasive.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I think the city would need to sign each intersection anyway. RTOR is so deeply embedded in society's collective car-brain that a change in the law alone wouldn't be enough to enforce the ban. Today, where RTOR is not permitted and signs are posted, drivers routinely ignore the signs as it is. Adding automated enforcement cameras would help enforce RTOR and red-light running, which is equally pervasive.

Maybe whichever bollard factory DOTI bought (operating under the trade name, Visual Clutter, LLC, I believe; a subsidiary of Ugly Cities, Inc.) can add a production line for No RTOR signs too.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

That's what we need; more 'missing middle' housing

Newly Constructed Townhome Project in Denver Sells for $10.5M
September 7, 2023 -- Mile High CRE

2566-2598 S. Delaware Street and 351-375 W. Vassar Ave.








Images courtesy of Hill Street Realty



Unfortunate or not for more affordable 'missing middle' housing you go to the suburbs.

Sold for $475k/unit and renting for $2.50/sf. The developer likely built this for under $300k/unit.

[TakeFive]

Interesting

Originally Posted by BG918

Sold for $475k/unit and renting for $2.50/sf. The developer likely built this for under $300k/unit.

So roughly $3,400 per unit rent then. Nice option for renters; the units have a private garage, a private (if small) yard for nude sunbathing and how 'bout that gas stove.

Gas stoves are taking political heat but not in Oklahoma - or New Mexico but if you live in Albuquerque leave your guns at home. But once you come to the desert it's been mostly all-electric for long time. It's like politics is All Over the Map.

My guess is this size of project is suitable for a wide variety of more modest-sized investors.

[mojiferous]

Buckle up, because the development community despises lessons and some people would rather recreate the Skyline Urban Renewal Project than lose any margin! https://businessden.com/2023/09/18/veter...fice-buildings-likely-need-to-be-demoed/

If you think upper downtown is not great because of the junkies and crime, wait until those buildings are either a) empty lots waiting for something to be built or b) rotting and boarded up while the owner determines whether it can be demolished. And because these buildings are over 2 stories and aren't single-family homes all the "historical preservation" NIMBYs won't fight to save them (they'll probably hold a little fair and expect all the lots to be turned into dog parks and then cry about how the city was at fault when they're just junkie-filled dirt lots).

In 50 years people will be on this board complaining about how short-sighted we were to tear down such beautiful mid-mod office blocks - "this building was clad in local marble and had this amazing brutalist lobby, why would they tear it down?"

[TakeFive]

Well said; interesting-fun post

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Buckle up, because the development community despises lessons and some people would rather recreate the Skyline Urban Renewal Project than lose any margin! https://businessden.com/2023/09/18/veter...fice-buildings-likely-need-to-be-demoed/

If you think upper downtown is not great because of the junkies and crime, wait until those buildings are either a) empty lots waiting for something to be built or b) rotting and boarded up while the owner determines whether it can be demolished. And because these buildings are over 2 stories and aren't single-family homes all the "historical preservation" NIMBYs won't fight to save them (they'll probably hold a little fair and expect all the lots to be turned into dog parks and then cry about how the city was at fault when they're just junkie-filled dirt lots).

In 50 years people will be on this board complaining about how short-sighted we were to tear down such beautiful mid-mod office blocks - "this building was clad in local marble and had this amazing brutalist lobby, why would they tear it down?"

Denver Mayor Mike Johnston's proposed 2024 budget aims to revitalize downtown
Sep 18, 2023 By: Colette Bordelon -- 7Denver

Mayor Johnston said downtown Denver has one of the highest commercial vacancy rates in the country. The proposed budget invests $58 million in downtown revitalization. Vibrant, affordable and safe are the goals of Mayor Mike Johnston's 2024 budget proposal.

"We know that a vibrant city starts with a vibrant downtown," Johnston said at a press conference where he outlined the proposal. "We want to convert downtown Denver from being a centralized business district to being a centralized neighborhood district..."

It appears Denver needs additional funding to finish the revitalized 16th street mall as well as more funding for the CCC.

The money slated for revitalizing downtown includes funding for an extended tree canopy along 16th Street Mall and new pedestrian spaces, as well as stabilizing businesses that have been impacted by construction and attracting new ones. It would also aim to ensure the success of the Convention Center in both operations and maintenance.

[TakeFive]

Doing a Deep Dive into Right Turn on Red lights

I sorta knew it was a 'thing' but I was ignorant as to why it was a 'thing.'

Like "Twenty is Plenty" I assumed it wasn't about reducing traffic deaths. Common sense told me this 'feel good' move would be a waste of time - although I haven't checked to see if deaths are trending down or why.

Of the Top 25 Causes of Vehicle Crashes, RTOR is listed.... Umm, actually it's not even on the list.

RTOR 'should be' one of the safer maneuvers in a vehicle. You start from 0 mph and turn right onto a street where there should be no pedestrians since they would be walking against the flow of traffic and staring at a sign that says: "Do Not Walk."

Things that are more dangerous than RTOR

• Right turn on GREEN light
• Left turn on GREEN light
• Right turn at any intersection with NO traffic lights
• Left turn at any intersection with NO traffic lights
• Running Red lights never a good thing

What's it All About, Alfie
Obviously it's about potential conflicts with pedestrians and/or bike riders.
Fair enough

Should Downtown be different?
Perhaps

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Doing a Deep Dive into Right Turn on Red lights

I sorta knew it was a 'thing' but I was ignorant as to why it was a 'thing.'

Like "Twenty is Plenty" I assumed it wasn't about reducing traffic deaths. Common sense told me this 'feel good' move would be a waste of time - although I haven't checked to see if deaths are trending down or why.

Of the Top 25 Causes of Vehicle Crashes, RTOR is listed.... Umm, actually it's not even on the list.

RTOR 'should be' one of the safer maneuvers in a vehicle. You start from 0 mph and turn right onto a street where there should be no pedestrians since they would be walking against the flow of traffic and staring at a sign that says: "Do Not Walk."

Things that are more dangerous than RTOR

• Right turn on GREEN light
• Left turn on GREEN light
• Right turn at any intersection with NO traffic lights
• Left turn at any intersection with NO traffic lights
• Running Red lights never a good thing

What's it All About, Alfie
Obviously it's about potential conflicts with pedestrians and/or bike riders.
Fair enough

Should Downtown be different?
Perhaps

RTOR isn't about vehicle crashes, it's about drivers blocking the crosswalks with their cars and/or generally being oblivious to pedestrians about to cross in front of them because the are so intently staring to their left in anticipation of that gap in cross traffic where they can zip out and save 8 seconds before the light would have turned green for them anyway.

I've walked to work everyday for nearly two decades, and at least once a day I have to cross in front of a car that's blocking the crosswalk, putting me mere feet in between their front bumper and the vehicles zipping along at 30+ MPH parallel to me, while I have the pedestrian signal. Some motorists don't even stop. If the sight line allows, they will take the RTOR at 10 MPH and if you were about to step off the curb into the crosswalk, good luck to you.

RTOR is just one of the many ways in which we have normalized the idea that people can operate 2-ton machines that occupy 85 square feet in area at remarkable speeds without much concern for anything other than their own convenience.

[mhays]

Well said, Ken.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

RTOR isn't about vehicle crashes, it's about drivers blocking the crosswalks with their cars and/or generally being oblivious to pedestrians about to cross in front of them because the are so intently staring to their left in anticipation of that gap in cross traffic where they can zip out and save 8 seconds before the light would have turned green for them anyway...

I don't disagree with you, Ken, but this is one of those "we're privileged to be able to worry about things like this" issues. I often speak to relative conditions in the rest of the world and outside of a few western European countries and Singapore, it's chaos and it's part of the excitement of being in a City. Unless there is a clear warrant correlating RTOR to pedestrian or cyclist deaths, I think this is more of us having too much time on our hands.

The real problem is 11' highway width travel lanes on roads throughout Congress Park and every other Denver neighborhood allowing vehicles to safely (in their perception) travel at 50+ MPH speeds - those are the places where vehicle pedestrian deaths are occurring and it'd be pretty easy to take those lanes down to 9' with one lane dedicated to multi-modal transit and significant slow vehicle movements. We could also add safe protected crossings at reasonable intervals for our arterial streets - not with Hawks or traffic signals but with yellow flashers (let's be reasonable, the hawks and traffic lights are far too expensive to implement en masse).

^This would all involve DOTI thinking about more than the largest 18 wheeler and hook n' ladder fire truck movements, so it's all pie in the sky anyways...

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by laniroj

The real problem is 11' highway width travel lanes on roads throughout Congress Park and every other Denver neighborhood allowing vehicles to safely (in their perception) travel at 50+ MPH speeds - those are the places where vehicle pedestrian deaths are occurring and it'd be pretty easy to take those lanes down to 9' with one lane dedicated to multi-modal transit and significant slow vehicle movements. We could also add safe protected crossings at reasonable intervals for our arterial streets - not with Hawks or traffic signals but with yellow flashers (let's be reasonable, the hawks and traffic lights are far too expensive to implement en masse).

^This would all involve DOTI thinking about more than the largest 18 wheeler and hook n' ladder fire truck movements, so it's all pie in the sky anyways...

Actually, there are plenty of maps available as to where these deaths are occuring. And I do not see a single auto-pedestrian accident in Congress Park. Not one. (See https://www.westword.com/news/denver-traffic-deaths-2022-map-update-13801191, https://www.denvergov.org/Government/Citywide-Programs-and-Initiatives/Vision-Zero, etc. etc.)

I know that good planning mantra is to blame the egos of the fire chiefs and their big dick fire trucks. But as for the ongoing saga on 7th Avenue - saw a DOTI truck get stuck the other day (the irony). And the daily struggle of the school bus is the one really getting on people's nerves. I know that most childless urbanists do not think much about school buses, but they serve a pretty important function, if you ask me. (I am just waiting for some planner-type to advocate for moving the school bus stops on to the traffic sewers of 6th and 8th. Bucolic bikeways > children.) The fire departments stand out because they actually have the power to push back, which makes them the face of the fight. But they are hardly alone.

This article today, actually (Denver Fire places a moratorium on new traffic circles): https://denvergazette.com/premium/denver...f0a05b4-5749-11ee-8a5f-fb68a08f187b.html

Might be behind a paywall.

[mhays]

Some countries solve this with smaller trucks.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mhays

Some countries solve this with smaller trucks.

Yes well, if we would like to vote a tax hike and bonding authorization so we can budget a fleet replacement - for DOTI maintenance trucks, snow plows, trash trucks, fire trucks, and the school district's bus fleet - we can certainly have that discussion. But until we do, how about we keep the streets passable? This one doesn't seem like a difficult chicken and egg to me. Bucolic bikeways are not essential.

[mhays]

True, the time to do that would've been BEFORE the streets were re-engineered for ever-larger trucks.

That said, fleet replacements tend to happen pretty often. Start now and most fleets will be turned over before you know it.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Yes well, if we would like to vote a tax hike and bonding authorization so we can budget a fleet replacement - for DOTI maintenance trucks, snow plows, trash trucks, fire trucks, and the school district's bus fleet - we can certainly have that discussion. But until we do, how about we keep the streets passable? This one doesn't seem like a difficult chicken and egg to me. Bucolic bikeways are not essential.

Wait, you guys get school buses coming through the neighborhood and picking up little clusters of kids at stops? Talk about bucolic. In other, wealthy, parts of the city DPS told parents to get f**cked and walk/bike/drive their kids to school.

Wouldn't it make more sense just to have city provided micro-transit to get the nannies and au pairs around the neighborhood? Hell, how many kids are we talking about? 12?


Elbowing aside, who in DOTI screwed up the lane widths and transitions so that a school bus can't get through? If a bus can navigate Capitol Hill elsewhere than 7th Ave, which IIRC is one of the larger streets, then it shouldn't be that hard to stripe and bollard to permit a bus to pass.

[bunt_q]

I don’t have a photo hosting service anymore or I’d show you pictures. It’s because the new traffic circles are almost the full width of 7th Avenue. If they were 4 feet, maybe even 2 feet, narrower, I’d wager they would have the same effect on traffic, deterrence and slowing, without being nearly impossible to navigate. But alas, we know DOTI doesn’t hire anybody who can do math.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by mhays

True, the time to do that would've been BEFORE the streets were re-engineered for ever-larger trucks.

That said, fleet replacements tend to happen pretty often. Start now and most fleets will be turned over before you know it.

Exactly - I bet that entire fleet has been replaced just since the first time I started to hear people having this exact discussion.

[TakeFive]

Nice balance of Form and Function; great choice of materials and nice texture.

This may be the best groundbreaking news this year.

--------------------------

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

RTOR isn't about vehicle crashes, it's about drivers blocking the crosswalks with their cars and/or generally being oblivious to pedestrians about to cross in front of them because the are so intently staring to their left in anticipation of that gap in cross traffic where they can zip out and save 8 seconds before the light would have turned green for them anyway.

Knowing me, I'd be irritated as well if I had to walk in your shoes.

And now that the temps are moderating I'm planning on getting out to walk more in my own shoes.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Might be behind a paywall.

The sense I get is if you're an infrequent user of the Gazette there's no paywall. They do have some very good writers.

From what I've read it seems that (like along 7th Ave.) DOTI has created clusters of clutter. This can end up being a distraction and confusing.

I can't recall Scottsdale using any bollards anywhere and they have a ton of traffic calming devices. One advantage they have is that much of the city is built on a 'suburban' model (as apposed to a city grid) which has limited access to begin with but the city loves to put in traffic circles on collector streets. On one of their older streets they intermittently use bike separation devices on each side. They have dropped the speed limit to 30 mph and post flashing signs of the speed limit as well as posting the speed you're traveling. Scottsdale uses flashing lights in various places typically to measure your speed as an encouragement. Note: Scottsdale is a multiyear gold winner for being bike friendly.

Phoenix, with the exception of one or two protected bike lanes near downtown does not use any bollards either. In the neighborhoods they often use traffic circles but they're not that big; it's just more of a visual reminder to driver carefully. Phoenix however liberally uses speed humps notedly along streets in areas where children live

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Yes well, if we would like to vote a tax hike and bonding authorization so we can budget a fleet replacement - for DOTI maintenance trucks, snow plows, trash trucks, fire trucks, and the school district's bus fleet - we can certainly have that discussion. But until we do, how about we keep the streets passable? This one doesn't seem like a difficult chicken and egg to me. Bucolic bikeways are not essential.

https://denverite.com/2023/09/19/denver-...ructure-budget-west-denver-microtransit/

DOTI’s 2024 budget also includes a “significant investment” in replacing city vehicles.

According to Phipps, around 45% of DOTI’s vehicles have passed their useful lifespan, a situation which worsened during the pandemic. Phipps also said that in 2023, DOTI had 88% of its equipment available, while the industry standard is 95%.

Originally Posted by mhays

True, the time to do that would've been BEFORE the streets were re-engineered for ever-larger trucks.

That said, fleet replacements tend to happen pretty often. Start now and most fleets will be turned over before you know it.

That makes no economic sense on top of the need for normal equipment replacement.

Wider Streets are a huge advantage. Most of the streets down here are probably closer to 7th Ave; you paint a bike lane on each side and you're done - other than creating four-way stops or traffic lights where needed. Wider streets make it easy for bike riders as they're not crowded by traffic.

To create a clustermess that's hard for emergency vehicles to navigate is where the insanity is.

It's also important to recognize, at least in Denver, that the lavish budgets of recent years has about an 18 month lifespan left before all that COVID money runs out and iija $'s have been used in Denver to fulfill the $1 billion promises that voters approved which was before COVID INFLATION.

Buckle up

With the coming period of Stagflation budgeting will face a harsh reality.