Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[J.OT13]

A little blurry, but this one would be from around Summer 2019 (remember Summer 2019? Those were the days!)


https://ottawatourism.ca/en/connect-in-ottawa/advantages-mid-sized-destination-meetings

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Well I've been here for 15 years, and while i respect your right to an opinion, I have to disagree. The idea that chad is being bullied to me is ridiculous. These are all grown-ass, adults who are taking part in mutual, consensual rhetorical activities. If any of them would prefer not to take part they're free to stop at any time. chad even had some of them on ignore list for awhile so is clearly capable of exercising this option is he so chooses. But he actively chooses not to, and instead to aggressively respond to all provocations - perceived or otherwise - with at times rather colourful language. He's declared himself as a new and improved "glow up" self who can handle the forum's so called challenges so I see no reason not to believe him.

This is the last time I'll comment, because I know at this point I'm as guilty as anyone else of toxifying this place up

You make a fair point. I should not have said I *know* anything - I don't know the history, but it sounds as if the real fights were years ago. My intent was to offer the impression of an outsider.

What I'm seeing is a lot of non sequiturs popping up in the middle of otherwise innocuous conversations between two or three people, gratuitously mocking a third who may not even be posting at the moment. Third guy shows up and lets loose a string of curses when he sees the messages. His messages, to be fair, would be moderated to death on a lot of forums or even bannable. I recognize that. Nobody is innocent here.

But to repeat - to my virigin eyes, it does look a lot like a bunch of people making fun of him while he's he's not even in the room and then him telling them off for it when he gets back. Why keep provoking him? I see all kinds of high-minded defences /deflection of their behaviours, but no one is answering that question - why keep poking the bear? It come across as if they do it for sport.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Well I've been here for 15 years, and while i respect your right to an opinion, I have to disagree. The idea that chad is being bullied to me is ridiculous. These are all grown-ass, adults who are taking part in mutual, consensual rhetorical activities. If any of them would prefer not to take part they're free to stop at any time. chad even had some of them on ignore list for awhile so is clearly capable of exercising this option is he so chooses. But he actively chooses not to, and instead to aggressively respond to all provocations - perceived or otherwise - with at times rather colourful language. He's declared himself as a new and improved "glow up" self who can handle the forum's so called challenges so I see no reason not to believe him.

Exactly.

Honestly guys, do you think SSP would still be an interesting discussion forum for urban affairs if this example, below, was the norm?


SSPer with no malicious intent: "I'm noticing there's a lot of surface parking extremely close to Portage and Main"

One Certain Winnipegger With Known Mental Issues, whose extreme sensitivity must therefore always be spared: "Inflammatory trolling bullshit!!! You're wrong!!!"

Everyone else: "Okay okay okay, comment withdrawn, there are no surface parkings anywhere near Portage and Main, and let's make sure no one ever speaks of this ever again."




... I mean, if we wanted the above to be the standard here, discussion would be all but impossible.

Let's also note that Stryker, who's autistic, nonetheless got banned eventually. From the point of view of interactions in this forum, you kinda have to assume everyone's normal and grown up. If we know you aren't, we can try to give you a break, but only to a certain extent.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly.

Honestly guys, do you think SSP would still be an interesting discussion forum for urban affairs if this example, below, was the norm?


SSPer with no malicious intent: "I'm noticing there's a lot of surface parking extremely close to Portage and Main"

One Certain Winnipegger With Known Mental Issues, whose extreme sensibility must therefore always be spared: "Inflammatory trolling bullshit!!! You're wrong!!!"

Everyone else: "Okay okay okay, comment withdrawn, there are no surface parkings anywhere near Portage and Main, and let no one ever speak of this ever again."




... I mean, if we wanted the above to be the standard here, discussion would be all but impossible.

Let's also note that Stryker, who's autistic, nonetheless got banned eventually. From the point of view of interactions in this forum, you kinda have to assume everyone's normal and grown up. If we know you aren't, we can try to give you a break, but only to a certain extent.

Should we tiptoe around your obvious issues?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Should we tiptoe around your obvious sociopathy?

No, I can easily take your insults and (sometimes unfair) attacks, and we can still have a civil conversation despite them. For example, I see no problems with the discussion you and I had earlier about demolitions and the part sheer age plays when assessing the heritage value of a building, even if it started with a slightly unpleasant tone (that's okay, it happens sometimes). In fact it turned out to be an interesting discussion topic (the compromises of heritage preservation in a living/growing city) that could have been expanded if it weren't for the fact it was quite off-topic for this thread.

The discussion about how Calgary's massive CBD drops down to suburbia-level density of extreme lowrise detached wooden shacks strikingly quickly on the northeastern side could also have been perfectly civil and somewhat interesting. I had no problems at all with Pavlov's posts and he was on his way to convince me that Denver is close to being in the same league before the drama drowned everything else. And some of the other Westerners actually agreed with me (that Calgary is a boomtown with an overgrown CBD, therefore what's immediately outside it is a relic of a much less "big city" era). There was no reason this conversation had to become toxic.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by lio45

SSPer with no malicious intent: "I'm noticing there's a lot of surface parking extremely close to Portage and Main"

One Certain Winnipegger With Known Mental Issues, whose extreme sensitivity must therefore always be spared: "Inflammatory trolling bullshit!!! You're wrong!!!"

Except that didn't happen. You and Rousseau did a little banter where you pretended it happened - for the purpose of mocking someone - and now appear to believe it really happened??

This is so weeeeeeird.

And oops I said I wouldn't comment on it anymore

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

still waiting for an apology for the undeserved 'idiot' label festooned upon me for no reason.

Can-do it?

Can't-do.

None is forthcoming, it would seem. I deeply resent this and umpteen previous unprovoked aggressive attacks on me and my character since I returned to this forum.

When you call people 'idiots' for perceived skyline slights all I can say is be prepared to reap what you sow. Calling people names and then running home to daddy's protection from the kids chasing you is unbelievably childish. And when you dish out unflattering commentary in spades (the east "can't do" attitude, stagnant, etc.*) you better be prepared to take it.

*Such callous disregard was regularly dispensed by the protagonist at a time when plenty of people "back east" were hurting very badly from the worst economic situation since the 1930s, caused in no small part by the petro-dollarization of the Canadian currency.

Quite honestly, I am surprised that some are surprised at the schadenfreude this would provoke

[lio45]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

Except that didn't happen. You and Rousseau did a little banter where you pretended it happened - for the purpose of mocking someone - and now appear to believe it really happened?? Wut?

No, it happened pretty much like that, except that the comment-perceived-as-negative-by-the-super-thin-skinned-guy-who-always-creates-needless-drama was about Calgary, not Winnipeg, and that it was a few weeks ago (you weren't there at the time so you didn't see it).

And, of course, with the obvious difference that the third line was the complete opposite follow up: rather than giving up, the SSPer who had posted the original comment in the first line owned the Sensitive-Guy-Calling-Him-Wrong by bringing up a Google Streetview of a Massive Winnipeg Surface Parking Lot one block away from Portage and Main.

And yes, you can call that "poking the bear", but if I say 2+2=4 and the bear insists that 2+2=5 and the only way to not poke the bear is to agree that 2+2=5 and drop the subject, then this discussion forum ceases to function as a discussion forum.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by lio45

No, it happened pretty much like that, except that the comment-perceived-as-negative-by-the-super-thin-skinned-guy-who-always-creates-needless-drama was about Calgary, not Winnipeg, and that it was a few weeks ago (you weren't there at the time so you didn't see it).

And, of course, with the obvious difference that the third line was the complete opposite follow up: rather than giving up, the SSPer who had posted the original comment in the first line owned the Sensitive-Guy-Calling-Him-Wrong by bringing up a Google Streetview of a Massive Winnipeg Surface Parking Lot one block away from Portage and Main.

And yes, you can call that "poking the bear", but if I say 2+2=4 and the bear insists that 2+2=5 and the only way to not poke the bear is to agree that 2+2=5 and drop the subject, then this discussion forum ceases to function as a discussion forum.

I'd say badgering someone about a remark they made weeks ago by continuing to parody it during unrelated conversations hardly counts as "discussion."

[Maldive]

Meant to post this in the How much do you root for your hometown, region, province and country? thread, but it's better (and more inappropriate) here in the Inappropriate Great Canadian Skyline Comments Thread.

Homerism and a Canada forum snapshot:

1. Chad - my favourite forum member who, despite being subjected to a tsunami of vitriolic bullying, has big shoulders and has almost made Calgary seem appealing.

2. lio - the purveyor of the vitriol mentioned above, via a mirror-cracked polluted stream of blather infecting half of ssp threads (proper supervision a must and prescribed dosage needs adjustment).

3. MolsonExport - 34,000 posts.

4. WhipperSnapper - claims to live in Toronto, but lives in Montreal*.

5. MartinMtl - by far the wealthiest ssp forum contributor (via a 34.7% stake in instagram), lives here in Westmount and rents the basement* to Whipper.

6. Nicko999 - 2nd wealthiest ssp forum member (42.6% stake in The Weather Network and 11% stake in an NFL team with a politically-incorrect brand name). Lives 4 blocks away from Whipper and Martin.

7. TorontoDrew - lives in the second best city in North America, 540 kilometres s/w of WS’ westmount basement apartment.

8. Maldive - balanced and thoughtful posts, without the faintest trace of homerism.

See Skyscrapers below (sorry off topic)

Marcanadian

[mr.John]

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― Mark Twain

[esquire]

I realize no one cares at this point about my little Portage and Main asides in this four-alarm shitstorm, but screw it, I'm going ahead with it

Originally Posted by lio45

Wonder what kind of owners own those lots, and whether they're owned by the same people/entities who own office towers nearby or not (if it's the case, then I don't expect them to be for sale, nor cheap if they ever are, and they're also less likely to be developed). Did any of these parking lots change owners recently? Are they selling for a lot (by Winnipeg standards)?

When I first joined this forum I was a co-op student at the City of Winnipeg... one of the greatest toys I got to play with was a GIS application that showed every parcel of land in the city and if you clicked it, you got the key facts and figures including registered owner. I clicked on a lot of surface lots and from what I can tell, it was damn near impossible to intuitively connect land to individual owners in most cases. It was mainly a ton of numbered companies, not all from Manitoba.

I'm sure many of those properties are owned by people who have no real connection to Winnipeg anymore, e.g. Milton Rabinovich owned a sewing factory in an old warehouse, his kids moved to Toronto, Phoenix and Miami, the factory closed down, was demolished, turned into a parking lot and now Milton's grandchildren scattered across North America each get a cheque every month from Impark with the proceeds. Getting them to turn their minds to developing a plot in a city that they have no real connection to would be almost impossible.

That said, there are some parcels that are owned by companies with the means and inclination to develop them. James Richardson & Sons owns the land just east of their office tower at Portage and Main... they have pitched some significant developments but it never worked out. They recently built a small but beautiful building designed by trueviking of this forum... Here it is:



Winnipeg's minor league baseball park is adjacent to Richardson's new building... the lease for it includes a couple of surface lots that the City owns and wants to put up for development, but the owner of the ballpark (surprise) doesn't want to relinquish them because he wants the steady parking revenue.

The bottom line here is that the area in question only became a reasonable prospect for commercial development in the early 90s when the railyards moved out. And for the first decade of that period, nothing was happening at all in downtown Winnipeg. Really since WWI most commercial development downtown happened either on or west of Main Street, so the area in question has lagged.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by PortaPetee

I'd say badgering someone about a remark they made weeks ago by continuing to parody it during unrelated conversations hardly counts as "discussion."

The current version of this discussion (as seen in Nouvellecosse's post) is whether or not discussions on this forum should be conducted assuming all other users are grown up adults. As explained, in my opinion, they should - otherwise, the discussion forum aspect (the point of this place) just gets way too compromised. If for example there's a Montreal skyline pic posted that really makes it look like a tabletop and you feel you want to comment on that, you shouldn't refrain from commenting just because there exists one crazy Montrealer here who will likely throw a hissy fit.

(Above example being real - an Edmontonian said just that. No drama ensued.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

I realize no one cares at this point about my little Portage and Main asides in this four-alarm shitstorm, but screw it, I'm going ahead with it

No, I'm actually extremely interested in it, I just developed something for the first time last year, and now want to repeat this eventually building a taller building (in my hometown this time), and in the future the next logical thing would be to do this in a bigger city. There's a nonzero chance that if there's land available in the very heart of such a big city as Winnipeg (by my hometown standards), maybe this would be the best place to do it.

On the other hand, I'm always surprised by how high real estate values are everywhere in Anglo Canada, even in the markets that aren't "hot" (earlier this summer, my jaw dropped when I saw that the asking price for that building on (nearly dead...) Pacific Street in Maple Creek was $300k), so maybe I'll be sticker-shocked at the prices for vacant land in the Peg - I mean, it's got to be significantly cheaper than vacant land anywhere near downtown Montreal, right?

[craner]

Originally Posted by lio45

Thinking of it, it's hard to correctly define "downtown Quebec City". By comparison, downtown Sherbrooke is very well defined, and I would think at first sight, so are most other cities.

Well “downtown Calgary” is well defined by the line of wooden shacks surrounding it.
(This is meant in good-natured fun - please don’t let it cause five pages with no skyline photos in the “Canadian Skylines” thread).

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

No, I'm actually extremely interested in it, I just developed something for the first time last year, and now want to repeat this eventually building a taller building (in my hometown this time), and in the future the next logical thing would be to do this in a bigger city. There's a nonzero chance that if there's land available in the very heart of such a big city as Winnipeg (by my hometown standards), maybe this would be the best place to do it.

On the other hand, I'm always surprised by how high real estate values are everywhere in Anglo Canada, even in the markets that aren't "hot" (earlier this summer, my jaw dropped when I saw that the asking price for that building on Pacific Street in Maple Creek was $300k), so maybe I'll be sticker-shocked at the prices for vacant land in the Peg - I mean, it's got to be significantly cheaper than vacant land anywhere near downtown Montreal, right?

Back in the 90s the land in question probably could have been picked up for a song. The market was badly depressed through much of downtown Winnipeg. There were small older office buildings on prominent sites scooped up, and still owned, by what are basically mom and pop operators.

I'm not sure that those deals exist anymore really. One of my cousins has a chain of restaurants and he has been diversifying his portfolio by buying commercial real estate. As you surely know, finding buildings with ideal cap rates has been a major struggle for him. The deals are not what they once were. To find a bargain priced development site you'd have to venture into the fringe areas on the edges of downtown, but then development prospects become much more tenuous.

Bottom line, an old commercial building in a moribund area like Chinatown can probably still be bought for a good price, but surface parking near Portage and Main not so much. But I'm sure there are some exceptions that a bit of digging can uncover...

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

No, I can easily take your insults and (sometimes unfair) attacks, and we can still have a civil conversation despite them. For example, I see no problems with the discussion you and I had earlier about demolitions and the part sheer age plays when assessing the heritage value of a building, even if it started with a slightly unpleasant tone (that's okay, it happens sometimes). In fact it turned out to be an interesting discussion topic (the compromises of heritage preservation in a living/growing city) that could have been expanded if it weren't for the fact it was quite off-topic for this thread.

The discussion about how Calgary's massive CBD drops down to suburbia-level density of extreme lowrise detached wooden shacks strikingly quickly on the northeastern side could also have been perfectly civil and somewhat interesting. I had no problems at all with Pavlov's posts and he was on his way to convince me that Denver is close to being in the same league before the drama drowned everything else. And some of the other Westerners actually agreed with me (that Calgary is a boomtown with an overgrown CBD, therefore what's immediately outside it is a relic of a much less "big city" era). There was no reason this conversation had to become toxic.

I agree we can occasionally have semi constructive conversations. I also don’t think that Chad is totally innocent. Your penchant for bullying vulnerable people really makes me question your motives though. Particularly your attacks and gaslighting of forumers in the Trump thread. I think you get off on mocking people’s pain. Hence my earlier comment. But really I am not qualified to make such diagnoses. All I can do is see the pattern of your behaviour.

[PortaPetee]

Originally Posted by mr.John

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― Mark Twain

Don't judge me!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by mr.John

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― Mark Twain

This forum would be a more civil place if Chad followed that advice and never argued (i.e. always conceded points) with me, MolsonExport and rousseau ever again

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by esquire

I realize no one cares at this point about my little Portage and Main asides in this four-alarm shitstorm, but screw it, I'm going ahead with it



When I first joined this forum I was a co-op student at the City of Winnipeg... one of the greatest toys I got to play with was a GIS application that showed every parcel of land in the city and if you clicked it, you got the key facts and figures including registered owner. I clicked on a lot of surface lots and from what I can tell, it was damn near impossible to intuitively connect land to individual owners in most cases. It was mainly a ton of numbered companies, not all from Manitoba.

I'm sure many of those properties are owned by people who have no real connection to Winnipeg anymore, e.g. Milton Rabinovich owned a sewing factory in an old warehouse, his kids moved to Toronto, Phoenix and Miami, the factory closed down, was demolished, turned into a parking lot and now Milton's grandchildren scattered across North America each get a cheque every month from Impark with the proceeds. Getting them to turn their minds to developing a plot in a city that they have no real connection to would be almost impossible.

That said, there are some parcels that are owned by companies with the means and inclination to develop them. James Richardson & Sons owns the land just east of their office tower at Portage and Main... they have pitched some significant developments but it never worked out. They recently built a small but beautiful building designed by trueviking of this forum... Here it is:



Winnipeg's minor league baseball park is adjacent to Richardson's new building... the lease for it includes a couple of surface lots that the City owns and wants to put up for development, but the owner of the ballpark (surprise) doesn't want to relinquish them because he wants the steady parking revenue.

The bottom line here is that the area in question only became a reasonable prospect for commercial development in the early 90s when the railyards moved out. And for the first decade of that period, nothing was happening at all in downtown Winnipeg. Really since WWI most commercial development downtown happened either on or west of Main Street, so the area in question has lagged.

I love those stairs! Really nice building.