Ontario Highways

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The corridor was designated until a year ago when MTO removed the freeway designation…
That said, an MTO engineer did say that the current alignment of Highway 3 would have space for expansion (probably undivided 5 lanes?). The jog around St Thomas would just feel weird.

I think they’re going to have to re-designate it, or at least come up with a new design that sends it back up to London and not send it the full way to Aylmer. I am getting the impression that this is likely going to be treated as a staged freeway, and the existing alignment of HWY 3 along Centennial and Talbot Line has far too many properties fronting it for it to work that way without a ton of expropriation. The current jog around St Thomas is awkward and crosses the railroad, so I can’t imagine they would want to keep that as the main route for what is shaping up to be a major industrial corridor.

Central Elgin is also rezoning the section south of CN Rail along HWY 3 that they still own as industrial, and I am hearing from some people that I work with who live in the area that they are also planning on rezoning more near the airport to make up for the lands lost by the annexation.

[Dengler Avenue]

I think they’re going to have to re-designate it, or at least come up with a new design that sends it back up to London and not send it the full way to Aylmer.

Is it possible to redesignate the corridor as freeway?

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Is it possible to redesignate the corridor as freeway?

If they could remove the designation so easily, I doubt that it would be challenging to reinstate part of it, especially since it is all hypothetical anyway and it mostly is just the right for the MTO to retain the ability to have permit controls on those lands.

I also found an interesting image from a CTV article from provincial material, it only shows the designation as being removed for Aylmer/Malahide and being retained west of Springwater Road, but I ultimately do believe that the entire corridor was removed.

[Djeffery]

If they plan to improve Highbury, they don't need to build an entirely new highway up to London. Any new industrial expansion near the airport can use highway 74, it's not nearly as busy as Highbury. And if it did ever get really busy, they can widen it and put a bypass around Belmont. Highway 3 itself east of St Thomas has lots of room to be widened out to a 4 lane highway to Aylmer, it won't need freeway standard. Nothing says they can't twin Centennial to Talbot and build an overpass there either.

[Dengler Avenue]

That sounds similar to Highway 17 Black Road (Sault Sainte Marie).

[swimmer_spe]

Could we see an extension of 403 to the 402 south of 401? Maybe sections of the ring road gets the 402 designation?

[ScreamingViking]

Why not just widen the 401?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Why not just widen the 401?

How does that solve anything?

[ScreamingViking]

What problem needs to be solved here?

The volume on the 403 between Brantford and Woodstock is relatively light. I don't think adding a direct connection to the London area would change that.

So it doesn't make sense to me to build a completely new route -- especially one that long -- when an improved 401 plus some other smaller projects in the London-St. Thomas area may serve the need and be far cheaper.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

What problem needs to be solved here?

The volume on the 403 between Brantford and Woodstock is relatively light. I don't think adding a direct connection to the London area would change that.

So it doesn't make sense to me to build a completely new route -- especially one that long -- when an improved 401 plus some other smaller projects in the London-St. Thomas area may serve the need and be far cheaper.

I am not suggesting it be all done at once.
I am suggesting that the parts that are needed are done sooner than the others, but the ROW be preserved.

[ScreamingViking]

Ok, but what problem needs to be solved?

The right-of-way is probably safe for a long time. It's mostly farmland. Rail freight improvements may be useful too, along the existing corridors.

To me, this is about improving connections within the region -- St. Thomas to the 401, and Hwy 3 along a corridor that may require it due to spinoff industrial development related to the battery plant. Perhaps even a direct southeast extension of the 402 would help at some point if the demand is there.

IMO, highway improvements toward Michigan are the MOST important to planning, given the way the auto industry is inter-woven between that state and southwestern Ontario and likely to remain so. I think making the 401 more efficient to KW and Toronto would be more supportive of the sector within the province, rather than extending a parallel 403 at a cost of billions.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Could we see an extension of 403 to the 402 south of 401? Maybe sections of the ring road gets the 402 designation?

Despite the 3 and 403 numbers, they have no relation whatsoever to each other. The Sim City hobbiests have fantasized about some freeway spurring off near the 401/402 junction, joining up with highway 3 bypass and creating a whole new freeway to Fort Erie. That would make more sense to be called 403 than the current 403 is. You'd need to build something like the proposed 424 to join that highway with the current 403. There is nothing you can really do to the 403 now to extend it to meet the 402 given where both highways are, other than actually running it along the 401 corridor (meaning widening the 401).

If you look at a map, the first thing you would notice in relation to the 402 and 403 is they almost point at each other across the north of London. It's obviously not so simple, but several people have suggested the 402 just east of Strathroy should have ran across the north of London, along highway 22 or a new alignment just north of that. They could have veered the 403 to the south a but, had it meet the 401 about 8km west of where it does now and it could slid right up the west of Woodstock towards Embro and met with the 402 slicing north of London around the north side of Fanshawe Lake. But this has nothing to do with this fantasy St Thomas to Fort Erie freeway.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Despite the 3 and 403 numbers, they have no relation whatsoever to each other. The Sim City hobbiests have fantasized about some freeway spurring off near the 401/402 junction, joining up with highway 3 bypass and creating a whole new freeway to Fort Erie. That would make more sense to be called 403 than the current 403 is. You'd need to build something like the proposed 424 to join that highway with the current 403. There is nothing you can really do to the 403 now to extend it to meet the 402 given where both highways are, other than actually running it along the 401 corridor (meaning widening the 401).

If you look at a map, the first thing you would notice in relation to the 402 and 403 is they almost point at each other across the north of London. It's obviously not so simple, but several people have suggested the 402 just east of Strathroy should have ran across the north of London, along highway 22 or a new alignment just north of that. They could have veered the 403 to the south a but, had it meet the 401 about 8km west of where it does now and it could slid right up the west of Woodstock towards Embro and met with the 402 slicing north of London around the north side of Fanshawe Lake. But this has nothing to do with this fantasy St Thomas to Fort Erie freeway.

And here is where I point out that the 402 and 403 numbering is also a problem, but ... I will let you learn more about why.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And here is where I point out that the 402 and 403 numbering is also a problem, but ... I will let you learn more about why.

Well, I don't think it really is a problem, and I'm not terribly curious about it.

[ScreamingViking]

Sometimes the "numbering" makes sense. Sometimes not. I don't think it matters a whit now.

E.g., since the 401 connects so many communities that Highway 2 did (and still does, even if much of the old routes are regional roads) perhaps it should be the 402?

406 in St. Catharines and mid-Niagara? WTF?

404 in York Region? Egad!!!

And I don't know what the hell made them designate the 400 as it was numbered such... we had no Highway 0!

[haljackey]

Extend the 402? Something like this?



Highly doubt it, but we may see a N/S road between London and St. Thomas 4 laned or twinned some day.

[ScreamingViking]

Now THIS makes sense.

Originally Posted by haljackey

Extend the 402? Something like this?



Highly doubt it, but we may see a N/S road between London and St. Thomas 4 laned or twinned some day.

[Djeffery]

Move the n/s portion of that to Highbury (joined to the 401 of course) and you are on to something. The extension of VMP to join it would be a nice to have but I think going over to Higbury on the 401, which at this point would also be 4 or 5 lanes each way, to join with a Highbury freeway south to St T would be plenty adequate.

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton's Highway 6 widening study is progressing. A public information meeting was held in November which indicates that the Province appears to intend to build interchanges along the corridor and upgrade it to a 100km/h freeway, and not simply provide a twinned roadway with signalized intersections. The province announced construction funding for this last year, so it should move to construction in relative short order.


https://hwy6southwideninghamilton.ca/consultation/


Book Road - I suspect we will see a traditional Parclo interchange here (Alternative 1A)



Airport Road - Alternative 1 is my favourite for this one:



Some interesting options for the intersection with Upper James.. I think I would go with Option 1B (roundabout) for now, and hold of on the full reconfiguration of the intersection until the extension to Caledonia is built. I could see MTO going with 3B to reduce duplication costs for the Caledonia extension, but I really hope they don't go with 4 with the silly loop.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Hamilton's Highway 6 widening study is progressing. A public information meeting was held in November which indicates that the Province appears to intend to build interchanges along the corridor and upgrade it to a 100km/h freeway, and not simply provide a twinned roadway with signalized intersections. The province announced construction funding for this last year, so it should move to construction in relative short order.

This is good news for the airport. It should make it slightly more appealing to use as it will be a little easier. I wonder if they will leave it signed as 6, or will it get a 400 series number.