LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I don't wish to interfere with your loathing, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the same is true of every CBD (i.e. the area you describe) everywhere.

Take a walk through the CBD of Montreal, Toronto, heck, even bloody mid/downtown Manhattan after business hours and you could fire off a shotgun without hitting anyone.

As Uhu correctly pointed out at some point in the past, there are areas of "downtown" that aren't dead after business hours. Try going there.

I live near the intersection of Kent and Laurier and I also work in Centretown too. I "go there" every day. And the problem with CBDs is accurate. It also furthers the point that I'm making. Monocultures of just office buildings (or any other kind of monoculture for that matter) aren't conducive to vibrant areas. This isn't really controversial stuff.

[RTWAP]

Responding to the discussion about tourism a few months ago ...

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Ottawa has to play to its strengths, and those strengths are: overabundance of nature, the rivers and canal, and - unlike many other western countries - significant indigenous cultures and history.

I would add attractions based on being the capital, attractions of a national nature like the various museums, or the hoped-for National Portrait Gallery that you mentioned.

But it is possible to develop new themes, as long as they are distinct and uncommon. For example, if we built cable-guides for tethered electric self-flying dirigibles (Google Air?) and made interesting routes for them then we might go with a Water & Air theme.

Imagine a tethered electric powered dirigible with a cabin holding 10-12 people. Imagine it gliding down Sparks Street to touch down at a station near Confederation Square. People get on and off, and then it drifts up and away, gaining height as it passes between the War Memorial and the NAC, providing views of the canal, Conference Centre, Shaw Centre, and surroundings before gently turning left to follow the locks for a bit before moving up to a Major's Hill Park and a majestic view of the river, Parliament, Art Gallery and Market. Then cross the river above the Alexandra Bridge and settle in for a stop between the river and the Museum of History. Departing the Museum the airship would head south and west along the river's edge to Zibi and the Falls, coming in for a gentle landing just west of the War Museum. Taking off, it would head south briefly then begin a broad gentle left turn between the War Museum and Event Centre before heading past the Garden of the Provinces, climbing and then on a path parallel to Wellington but a half-block south, above the buildings. Then finally moving over Sparks between O'Connor and Metcalfe before descending to an elevated station near Elgin.

If self-driving cars become a thing then self-driving dirigibles might not be far behind. If that happens then add longer loops like Beechwood/Aviation/Sussex.

[Norman Bates]

Stay in school. Don't do drugs.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

I live near the intersection of Kent and Laurier and I also work in Centretown too. I "go there" every day. And the problem with CBDs is accurate. It also furthers the point that I'm making. Monocultures of just office buildings (or any other kind of monoculture for that matter) aren't conducive to vibrant areas. This isn't really controversial stuff.

I don't disagree with anything you've just written. I was just challenging the idea that a dead CBD after business hours is a uniquely Ottawa problem. It isn't.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I don't disagree with anything you've just written. I was just challenging the idea that a dead CBD after business hours is a uniquely Ottawa problem. It isn't.

I never said Ottawa was the only city with this problem.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I don't disagree with anything you've just written. I was just challenging the idea that a dead CBD after business hours is a uniquely Ottawa problem. It isn't.

What I would challenge is the idea that a condo dense Lebreton Flats will have much impact on the Centretown CBD. I think it quite unlikely. Not that I oppose a condo dense Flats, I just think there's a bit too much hype about how transformational it will be.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What I would challenge is the idea that a condo dense Lebreton Flats will have much impact on the Centretown CBD. I think it quite unlikely. Not that I oppose a condo dense Flats, I just think there's a bit too much hype about how transformational it will be.

This is a perfect area for new skyscrapers in lame old nimby filled Ottawa, a 50 story condo tower with it's low ceiling heights wouldn't protrude any further into our precious sky than the average 27 story office building in the CBD due to the elevation difference and ceiling height difference. Nothing about the Lebreton skyline will be 'transformational'. It will just be a continuation of the monotone carpet of towers across the skyline without any dangerous child-harming protrusion or shadows.

[1overcosc]

What I really like about the Sens plan is that it turns Lebreton into an actual urban neighbourhood that fits into the fabric of the city. It creates a real street grid that fits into the existing street layout, it has real urban blocks and real urban lots. It connects well to the neighbourhoods already in the area. It can grow and change organically over time to stay as a living district.

By contrast, the Devcore plan made the area into a specialty theme park. Once the attractions died--inevitable over time as tastes and culture change--all you have left is a giant white elephant that will require a wholesale redevelopment.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Tourist attractions of the type Ottawa seems to be missing are, contrary to popular belief, often as much or more for the locals than they are for tourists.

Knowing this, I'd say if there is an attraction that Ottawa is missing that would benefit the locals in addition to the tourists, it's probably some type of amusement park.

This.

Maybe that's one of the ideas Melnyk has for CTC. Alternatively, building one adjacent to Calypso and putting in a few hotels would probably draw quite a few 2+ day visits during the summer. Heck, if they ran affordable shuttles to Ottawa and Montreal they might get people staying there for a week and doing a few days of sightseeing in each city, interspersed with rollercoasters and waterpark fun.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by mykl

This is called the Bilbao effect. You can start learning about it here. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...effect/302582/

I think the Bilbao effect is incredibly hard to reproduce. Better to aim for something like the Eye of London. Build something interesting and unique. A brainstorming example would be to expand on the aquaduct and build canals crisscrossing the site, going into buildings where needed, crossing under roads. Create a bit of a Venice vibe. The knock on that would be expense, complexity, and the knock that it would forever be a cheap imitation of Venice. Do something else that's bold. Something that people can interact with and enjoy, and rave about to people who haven't done it.

Maybe just making a boat loop would work. Imagine a 4-6 person boat that does a loop from the History Museum, to a smaller version of the Falkirk Wheel to lift the boat to above the Chaudiere Falls, and then by the War Musuem, past the Event Centre, along the Aquaduct and then strap in for a ride down the whitewater section and then through a tunnel to rejoin the Ottawa river east of the Portage Bridge, then behind Parliament and then past Nepean Point on the way back to the History Museum. That would be some spectacular sightseeing. Combine that with the boat tours that already run on the Canal and you've gone a long way to distinguishing the city as a destination that uses water to tell its stories.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

(snip) when you build an entire neighbourhood at once, it lacks the diversity which only time can foster. That said, though stores come and go, the built form - the bones of which we so often talk here - remains. Lansdowne may be a collection of big names now, but in fifteen, twenty years as the new-building smell wears off, smaller stores will take their place and make the whole place feel more 'urban' and lived-in. I predict the same thing will happen to IllumiNATION: people will complain that it feels to stiff at first, but like a good pair of walking shoes, it'll shift over time to become a comfortable neighbourhood.

RV was criticized by the review panel for what they felt was an overly optimistic amount of retail. I would love to see them put townhouse podiums on their highrises, but get them zoned for mixed use, and build them with retail conversion in mind (wide sidewalks suitable for small patios, wheelchair accessible from the street, tall-ish ceilings, access to basement from parking garage, parking spots reconfigurable as delivery bays, etc.). Then let the retail push residential out gradually based on demand, much like it has on traditional main streets. And on specific streets modify the noise bylaw to allow noise until 1am on Thurs-Sat. Then see what happens.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

I never said Ottawa was the only city with this problem.

I know, but you referenced other cities in making your point as if to suggest they don't suffer from the same issue. They do, as do all cities with a CBD.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I know, but you referenced other cities in making your point as if to suggest they don't suffer from the same issue. They do, as do all cities with a CBD.

There are degrees. Many CBDs are still somewhat lively (or at least note dead) outside of business hours because there are other things to do or people living there, or a culture of people going out after work. Ottawa's is particularly bad.

[YOWflier]

If you say so. I've not seen anything exceptional about things here, and I spend at least a third of my life on travel.

[Arcologist]

Well said!

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

What's an "insane" number of condos? Ever wonder why people like hanging out in Toronto or downtown Vancouver or Montreal? It's mainly because there's lots of amenities and restaurants and shops around. Ever wonder how they stay open and do business? Because there's a lot of people who live nearby in buildings that house many people.

I don't get how somebody can frequent the Skyscraperpage forum and not get that condos are the things that make these places work. Without condos and people living nearby, what you end up with is Downtown Ottawa north of Laurier street after 6 pm on a weeknight: Dead, desolate, sad.

[Arcologist]

Originally Posted by Harley613

This is a perfect area for new skyscrapers in lame old nimby filled Ottawa, a 50 story condo tower with it's low ceiling heights wouldn't protrude any further into our precious sky than the average 27 story office building in the CBD due to the elevation difference and ceiling height difference. Nothing about the Lebreton skyline will be 'transformational'. It will just be a continuation of the monotone carpet of towers across the skyline without any dangerous child-harming protrusion or shadows.

Ohhh, but it WILL be transformational, just take a look at the 30-sec video RendezVous just posted on their illuminationlebreton.ca website: it compares Ottawa's new "skyline" with the likes of London, Paris, Tokyo, NYC, Shanghai. My goodness, we'll be right up there with the best of the best if this plan goes through!

[Arcologist]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

What I really like about the Sens plan is that it turns Lebreton into an actual urban neighbourhood that fits into the fabric of the city. It creates a real street grid that fits into the existing street layout, it has real urban blocks and real urban lots. It connects well to the neighbourhoods already in the area. It can grow and change organically over time to stay as a living district.

By contrast, the Devcore plan made the area into a specialty theme park. Once the attractions died--inevitable over time as tastes and culture change--all you have left is a giant white elephant that will require a wholesale redevelopment.

Wasn't the plan to have something of national/international significance on the site? Museums and tourist attractions accomplish this... condos and an NHL arena do not.

I've travelled to many great cities for their attractions: yes, to Toronto for the Ripley's Aquarium, and their zoo and theme park; to NYC for the museums and iconic skyscrapers; Boston for the waterfront, etc... But I've NEVER made travel plans based on a visit to a city's arena. For example, I will NOT be travelling to Edmonton to check out their new, state-of-the-art NHL arena and ICE District (which to me, is comparable to what is being proposed here at LeBreton), and I don't suspect too many other people will either. So how many people are going to come to Ottawa to check out our NHL arena and nice neighbourhood?!? I doubt it will be many...

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

Wasn't the plan to have something of national/international significance on the site? Museums and tourist attractions accomplish this... condos and an NHL arena do not.

I've travelled to many great cities for their attractions: yes, to Toronto for the Ripley's Aquarium, and their zoo and theme park; to NYC for the museums and iconic skyscrapers; Boston for the waterfront, etc... But I've NEVER made travel plans based on a visit to a city's arena. For example, I will NOT be travelling to Edmonton to check out their new, state-of-the-art NHL arena and ICE District (which to me, is comparable to what is being proposed here at LeBreton), and I don't suspect too many other people will either. So how many people are going to come to Ottawa to check out our NHL arena and nice neighbourhood?!? I doubt it will be many...

To my knowledge, nobody has ever proposed a major attraction that would draw people from great distances.

People don't travel to see the arena itself but what is going on at the arena. Instead of leaving all of those visitors in suburban Kanata they will leave the arena in central parts of the city to spend money at bars, restaurants, hotels, etc.

Ottawa has a lot of very good museums (including one already on the flats). They close at 5 and much of the city goes dead. An arena would be one of the few attractions in central Ottawa active after 5 pm.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

Wasn't the plan to have something of national/international significance on the site? Museums and tourist attractions accomplish this... condos and an NHL arena do not.

I've travelled to many great cities for their attractions: yes, to Toronto for the Ripley's Aquarium, and their zoo and theme park; to NYC for the museums and iconic skyscrapers; Boston for the waterfront, etc... But I've NEVER made travel plans based on a visit to a city's arena. For example, I will NOT be travelling to Edmonton to check out their new, state-of-the-art NHL arena and ICE District (which to me, is comparable to what is being proposed here at LeBreton), and I don't suspect too many other people will either. So how many people are going to come to Ottawa to check out our NHL arena and nice neighbourhood?!? I doubt it will be many...

The Devcore proposal didn't have anything of National significance either, just second rate versions of what we already have in Toronto and Montreal.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

So how many people are going to come to Ottawa to check out our NHL arena and nice neighbourhood?!? I doubt it will be many...

I've said this before, but I don't get comments that suggest that no one travels to see sporting events or concerts. That segment of travel is huge and growing. Assuming that the arena hosts events at the national and international level (which is virtually guaranteed), it is even more likely to draw people to the city from farther distances.

It will also help the image of the city as more than just a government town. Television shots of the arena overlooking the water will open the TV broadcasts whenever we are hosting events, and those will be a very welcome alternative to the stock pics of the Parliament Buildings that are used ad nauseum now. Will that kind of publicity entice more tourists to visit Ottawa? My guess is yes it will.