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  #14721  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 5:19 PM
TitleRequired TitleRequired is offline
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Originally Posted by sailor734 View Post
I don't think it is in the club's waterlot. The leased area was cut way, way back some years ago when the annual rental fees went up dramatically. (In the McKenna era AFAIR) I think it goes straight out from the end on the club's main wharf now.

Biggest issue I see is the potential for a parking mess stretching up Millidge Ave or spilling onto Manners Sutton and Kennebecasis Dr on a busy holiday weekend. I don't think I've ever seen a public ramp anywhere that didn't have a sizable parking lot set up for tow vehicles with trailers attached......They seem to often be a sort of mini waterfront park with a few picnic tables, garbage cans and sometimes even public washrooms.

This location is just the street running into the water where the ferry used to come in back in the mid 1900's.

The proposal isn't really a renewal as the existing site was makeshift at best.
It was reduced around 5 years ago to that is shown on paol, at the direction of a previous commodore.



The parking situation will be interesting. One F250 with boat trailer takes the place of around five cars. Notwithstanding the WAWA permits required, the road closures, etc.

Last edited by TitleRequired; Jun 3, 2024 at 5:23 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  #14722  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 5:40 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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Interesting. I guess what I remember from the 90's was a reduction from when the waterlot encompassed a good portion of the eastern half of Brother's Cove nearly out to the islands) to just the mooring field and the marina.
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  #14723  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 5:55 PM
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Interesting. I guess what I remember from the 90's was a reduction from when the waterlot encompassed a good portion of the eastern half of Brother's Cove nearly out to the islands) to just the mooring field and the marina.
The change a few years ago removed the mooring field from the waterlot. And slowly, non-member moorings are being installed on the more sheltered tucker park side. At some point the current mooring field that the rkyc manages will also start getting additional moorings. The current executive of the club isn't interested in moorings in the least.
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  #14724  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 6:05 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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The moorings are really a holdover from the days when you were required to have a mooring to keep a boat there. They launched everybody via the railroad and only then went to work on installing the marina. That requirement gradually fell away during the 80's and 90's as we moved to craning in. We went to delaying the launch until the freshet was below the breakwater, the floats were in and the pilings driven.
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  #14725  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 8:35 PM
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The moorings are really a holdover from the days when you were required to have a mooring to keep a boat there. They launched everybody via the railroad and only then went to work on installing the marina. That requirement gradually fell away during the 80's and 90's as we moved to craning in. We went to delaying the launch until the freshet was below the breakwater, the floats were in and the pilings driven.
Yeah, when waterlot was reduced, it would have made sense to shrink it to align with the main rkyc lot, and not across Millidge ave.

The incremental cost of doing it then would have been noise.
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  #14726  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 9:43 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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Originally Posted by TitleRequired View Post
Yeah, when waterlot was reduced, it would have made sense to shrink it to align with the main rkyc lot, and not across Millidge ave.

The incremental cost of doing it then would have been noise.
Looked into it a little. The waterlot directly in front of the end of Millidge Ave does not extend all the way to shore but rather ends about 60 feet offshore (at summer water levels). I assume this was done by the province to allow continued public access to the old ferry landing at the end of the street to launch boats.

I think it's great that a proper ramp is being build. It always struck me as odd that the city didn't have one. It is not just for power boats either. There are many kayaks and canoes launched there as well.

The lack of parking for tow vehicles and trailers and the congested nature of the street is the fly in the ointment.
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  #14727  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sailor734 View Post
Looked into it a little. The waterlot directly in front of the end of Millidge Ave does not extend all the way to shore but rather ends about 60 feet offshore (at summer water levels). I assume this was done by the province to allow continued public access to the old ferry landing at the end of the street to launch boats.

I think it's great that a proper ramp is being build. It always struck me as odd that the city didn't have one. It is not just for power boats either. There are many kayaks and canoes launched there as well.

The lack of parking for tow vehicles and trailers and the congested nature of the street is the fly in the ointment.
Yeah, it’s hard to tell where the waterlot starts. I did highlight it to the project engineer, who didn’t realize it existed nor its impact to their project.

They are expecting to pile drive steel pilings to hold their floating wharf. I wish them luck, for both initial driving and after spring thaw. 😂

It will be interesting how the city decides to manage parking. For some it’s probably easier to park at renforth.
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  #14728  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2024, 11:31 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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Originally Posted by TitleRequired View Post
Yeah, it’s hard to tell where the waterlot starts. I did highlight it to the project engineer, who didn’t realize it existed nor its impact to their project.

They are expecting to pile drive steel pilings to hold their floating wharf. I wish them luck, for both initial driving and after spring thaw.

It will be interesting how the city decides to manage parking. For some it’s probably easier to park at renforth.
They had the waterlot plotted on one of the drawings I saw at the information session. Looks like it begins just past the end of the floats. The engineer suggested to me that they would be using a drill rig to set the float pilings (bedrock I assume)

Agree it will be interesting to see what the ice does by next spring.
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  #14729  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 2:14 AM
DyAm00394 DyAm00394 is online now
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I see AllNewBrunswick has a new article with the headline “Developers Skeptical SJ Move Will Boost New Housing”. Wonder what that’s about? Anyone with access to view the article, care to share some info?
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  #14730  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 11:19 AM
adamuptownsj adamuptownsj is online now
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I see AllNewBrunswick has a new article with the headline “Developers Skeptical SJ Move Will Boost New Housing”. Wonder what that’s about? Anyone with access to view the article, care to share some info?
Just a tweak to permitting processes so pre-construction work can begin before rezoning and permits have been secured- staff issuance vs board approval for 'temporary use permits'. It's not a bad change but it's not a motivator.
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  #14731  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 12:04 PM
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Just a tweak to permitting processes so pre-construction work can begin before rezoning and permits have been secured- staff issuance vs board approval for 'temporary use permits'. It's not a bad change but it's not a motivator.
Thanks👍🏻
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  #14732  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 2:11 PM
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I don't think this is a function of strategy. Ultimately the types of buildings that are developed are decided by the market. Moncton is the fastest growing city in the province so it's not surprising that the larger, taller projects are more common there right now.
I’ll have to respectfully disagree. Moncton is larger and growing faster, but the demographics are still very much comparable between the two cities. Moncton is clearly strategizing height and density, while Saint John is not, or at least not doing it well. Saint John could devise a better strategy to incentivize height and density, and do more to try and attract bigger developers to enter our market and build up the skyline to take advantage of coastal views.

Our coastal location and history are two of the biggest things going for us over Moncton. Saint John is the fifth largest coastal CMA in the Canada. We’re a country that’s in a housing crisis with all kinds of opportunity for property developers to make money. It really shouldn’t be that hard to attract some bigger time property developers to the region to invest in building some high rise condos and apartments to take advantage of the coastal views to be had here in Canada’s oldest city.

Fundy Quay is an ambitious project for local developers based out of Rothesay, NB a suburban “town” with a population of 12,000 people. Imagine what could see built next if we could attract some developers from much bigger places, with far more experience building high rises than the Elias Group, who correct me if I’m wrong, have zero experience building high rises. I believe Fundy Quay will be their first high rise, and props to them for having the vision to want to build the first 19 storey building in Saint John in almost 50 years. But, it’s a big country, and even bigger world out there. We should be trying to attract and incentivize some bigger developers from around Canada, and around the world to come invest here and build up the Saint John skyline.
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  #14733  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 3:22 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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You do raise a valid point about density. For years we've been bombarded with "urban sprawl=bad planning" and "15 minute cities" yet what do we do? Build a bunch of low rises with surface parking well away from the urban core in the suburbs (Millidgeville, Loch Lomond Rd, Westside etc.).

Maybe that's a case of developers building what people want?

Last edited by sailor734; Jun 4, 2024 at 3:53 PM.
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  #14734  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn View Post
I’ll have to respectfully disagree. Moncton is larger and growing faster, but the demographics are still very much comparable between the two cities. Moncton is clearly strategizing height and density, while Saint John is not, or at least not doing it well. Saint John could devise a better strategy to incentivize height and density, and do more to try and attract bigger developers to enter our market and build up the skyline to take advantage of coastal views.

Our coastal location and history are two of the biggest things going for us over Moncton. Saint John is the fifth largest coastal CMA in the Canada. We’re a country that’s in a housing crisis with all kinds of opportunity for property developers to make money. It really shouldn’t be that hard to attract some bigger time property developers to the region to invest in building some high rise condos and apartments to take advantage of the coastal views to be had here in Canada’s oldest city.

Fundy Quay is an ambitious project for local developers based out of Rothesay, NB a suburban “town” with a population of 12,000 people. Imagine what could see built next if we could attract some developers from much bigger places, with far more experience building high rises than the Elias Group, who correct me if I’m wrong, have zero experience building high rises. I believe Fundy Quay will be their first high rise, and props to them for having the vision to want to build the first 19 storey building in Saint John in almost 50 years. But, it’s a big country, and even bigger world out there. We should be trying to attract and incentivize some bigger developers from around Canada, and around the world to come invest here and build up the Saint John skyline.
What's the cost per sq ft for a highrise when built, ex land?

Whats the cost of financing these projects these days?

Could someone afford that at a median family income of 70,000 per year?

I don't know the answers to these questions myself, but I figure it would fit into a developers plan for deciding where and what to build.

I recall a conversation with a person affiliated with a developer, and the average revenue per sq ft of retail space in Moncton is almost double of that in Saint John, for whatever reason. This figures into higher rents possible, and this cascades into the impacts and influence on where developers would concentrate on.

I would decline to consider there being a housing crisis in Saint John with the many properties up for sale on realtor.ca In the greater SJ area there are 275 properties listed. I'd rather term it as there being a mortgage crisis; where the current mortgage rates are higher than anticipated.
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  #14735  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 5:09 PM
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I would decline to consider there being a housing crisis in Saint John with the many properties up for sale on realtor.ca In the greater SJ area there are 275 properties listed. I'd rather term it as there being a mortgage crisis; where the current mortgage rates are higher than anticipated.
I think that's a gross oversimplification of the problem. The number of properties for sale is irrelevant to people who are being pushed out of their homes due to rapidly rising rents.
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  #14736  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sailor734 View Post
You do raise a valid point about density. For years we've been bombarded with "urban sprawl=bad planning" and "15 minute cities" yet what do we do? Build a bunch of low rises with surface parking well away from the urban core in the suburbs (Millidgeville, Loch Lomond Rd, Westside etc.).

Maybe that's a case of developers building what people want?
I’d argue the Carleton Peninsula is part of the core of the city too… while much of the West Side could be considered core adjacent. It’s a a bit ridiculous they’re calling that new apartment building off Fairville Boulevard “Aquarius Towers” not just because it’s only 6 storeys, but because it’s a single building. I don’t think it’s tall enough to see any water at that location. If it was 20 storeys or something, you’d probably get quite a few units actually with a view of the Bay of Fundy. But where they should really put up some legitimate apartment towers is at Fairville Plaza, and Lancaster Mall. There’s all kinds of parking already, and all kinds of shopping and amenities within walking distance. I believe at both locations 15-20 storeys would be enough for a view of the Bay of Fundy.


There’s also room for some mid rise and high rise residential towers to go up in the lower West Side, such as the Belyea Arena Site, Fort Dufferin, King Street West, and quite a few other locations if some old shacks and decrepit buildings could be torn down, or some vacant and under-utilized land be cleared for development use. Really though, we should be trying to incentivize building more residential towers all around the city to increase density, and unlock water views of both the ocean and the rivers.

Obviously where makes the most sense, though, is the central peninsula. There’s all kinds of room for mid rises and high rises in the south end, and they’d be quite a positive, gentrifying improvement to some pretty run down and under-utilized areas. It would also just really fill in the skyline. I imagine there would be some NIMBYS against tall buildings going up in the south end blocking what’s currently a view of the water for some places Uptown, but the south end is largely outside the heritage conservation area, and it would be ridiculous to veto significant developments from going up in the south end over something like that. Traffic concerns are mostly bull… especially considering most Uptown traffic originates from the suburbs. Increasing density > Traffic concerns.

Percy’s hole is the perfect spot to build a 30 storey apartment building with underground parking, imo. Even though it sounds like what might end up being built there could be less than the originally planned 12 storey. Still, I’d like to think with the right partners, we could see something taller than the originally planned 12 storey go up there, instead of the something less. Hopefully we’ll have some good news regarding that site sooner than later.
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  #14737  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TitleRequired View Post
What's the cost per sq ft for a highrise when built, ex land?

Whats the cost of financing these projects these days?

I don't know the answers to these questions myself, but I figure it would fit into a developers plan for deciding where and what to build.
I don’t know either, but they sure are good questions. I know there’s a sweet spot depending on the price of land though. 30 storey apartment buildings are commonplace around the world, but here in NB, they’re basically considered skyscrapers

The city owns quite a bit of vacant land, and selling it at steep discounts to developers who plan to build high rises could be effective. Tax holidays to developers who agree to build over a certain height could also be part of the strategy to incentivize height and density, but possibly require tax reform first.

What I do know is that it seems a lot of Saint Johnners are opposed to living in tall buildings for some reason. I don’t really get it, but to each their own. I think opinions can change, and that people will begin to see the benefit and appeal. More importantly, I think our local and provincial leaders need to do a better job trying to attract bigger developers to Saint John to see the appeal of our city. If Moncton can attract these type of mid rise and high rise developments, I see no reason why we shouldn’t strive for similarly tall developments to be built here in Saint John.
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  #14738  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 6:12 PM
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I think that's a gross oversimplification of the problem. The number of properties for sale is irrelevant to people who are being pushed out of their homes due to rapidly rising rents.
Well, it is when there isn't a flow of people from apartments to houses. Nor is there construction on many of the vacant lots in the city. Many going for 20-40,000$; fully serviced.

There are quite a few properties in SJ going for less than what they'd rent for.

For example:
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2...oad-saint-john

The mortgage on this would be around 700$/month. Don't know about the trailer park fees, but presents an option to many, its on a bus route near many amenities. Not my cup of tea, but compared to paying the going rate for a three bedroom apartment, its an option.
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  #14739  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 6:37 PM
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What I do know is that it seems a lot of Saint Johnners are opposed to living in tall buildings for some reason.
I would look at it more that single family detached dwellings is the goal for many. And was achievable by many in Saint John and area for quite some time; where many houses were available for 3x median family income.
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  #14740  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 6:47 PM
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I would look at it more that single family detached dwellings is the goal for many. And was achievable by many in Saint John and area for quite some time; where many houses were available for 3x median family income.
While it may still be the goal for many, the reality is that many Saint Johnners will be destined to be renters for life unless we see a sudden surge in income levels.

Apartment towers with spectacular ocean views seem far preferable to the current rental situation with all the slumlords and scuzzy apartments in decrepit old buildings.
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