Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Abbotsford International Airport could probably expand to be that size.

What... no comments about my new Airport name for Toronto?

Anyway, Abbotsford International is far. REALLY far. Like almost 70km far. To put that in perspective, it's about the same distance as Narita Airport is from Tokyo... a MUCH bigger city than Vancouver.

A 2nd airport for YVR would be better situated at Boundary Bay. extending the runways into the bay so the ALR is preserved.

SAYING THAT... I think YXX is a better location for an Airport, as it's centrally located for the growing Fraser Valley... but in terms of... if we outgrow YVR ( which I don't see happening for a long, long, time... ). I think Toronto will outgrow YYZ before Vancouver outgrows YVR.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Cities like London have Express services like the Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express. Expensive. Fast. And garner a lot of business traffic.

Is Toronto on the same level as London? Judging by the price drop to $12... nope.

You can't compare it to the Canada Line in Vancouver. That line doesn't 'integrate' with the transit system, it IS the transit system. YVR is <4km from the mainline in Richmond.

It's not quite as high speed. I think the Heathrow Express covers the same kind of distance in 15 minutes compared to 25 for UP. But taking the Tube to Heathrow from Paddington takes over an hour. And it's much faster than driving. In Toronto, the highway system actually brings you into downtown pretty fast. If you aren't flying in during morning rush hour or flying out at afternoon rush, driving can be as fast as the UP, espcially if you are travelling from a Hotel a decent distance from Union.

And if you are travelling in a group/family, then renting a limo to take you to your hotel can start to be cheaper and faster than the old fare prices in Toronto. The new prices are a small premium on the GO service and much more comparable to a taxi for 3 or more people.

Also interesting, Heathrow express doesn't use the Oyster card. You can use Presto on the UP.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I find this interesting... Transit in Toronto ( streetcar/subway ) really is slow when compared to the SkyTrain. I think people don't realize that getting to Surrey in 45 minutes on a regular train is quite fast. Surrey King George is about the same distance as Pearson is from downtown.

There are quite a few more stations on the Toronto Subway. I took the Subway from Union to Kipling then the bus to the Airport years ago. Just the subway portion as it was was so long. All the speedup slowdown and stopping is surprisingly annoying. Getting on the bus to the airport was actually refreshing. Skytrain with it's longer distances, especially on some stretches is so much less jarring.

Oh, and with how busy the subway is, and with how shitty some of the stations are, bringing your luggage on the subway that far is a real pain in the ass.

[xd_1771]

Here's an interesting bit from RapidKL (Malaysia) on wheel griding/noise reduction on their Kelana Jaya Line which is identical on our system

http://www.thestar.com.my/metro/communit...s-with-cost-through-awardwinning-innova/

I get the feeling something similar has been happening here on our SkyTrain system. Back in the fall the segment between 22nd and New West Stations on the Expo Line was easily the loudest on the system when going eastbound. It was rather annoying to pass through constant noise for 4 minutes.

Now that portion is dead silent, in both directions - you pretty much don't hear the noise of the LIM at all, or most anything. On both the 1st and 2nd gen Mk IIs it is dead silent - and on a Mk I, while still not completely silent, it is noticeably quieter. I commute this portion every single day and I am confident that this is the quietest and smoothest I've ever ridden on the (E/M-Line) SkyTrain system. I don't understand how the noise levels were brought down so much and so fast - but whatever BCRTC maintenance ended up doing there, it's has passed the test with flying colours

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Here's an interesting bit from RapidKL (Malaysia) on wheel griding/noise reduction on their Kelana Jaya Line which is identical on our system

http://www.thestar.com.my/metro/communit...s-with-cost-through-awardwinning-innova/

I get the feeling something similar has been happening here on our SkyTrain system. Back in the fall the segment between 22nd and New West Stations on the Expo Line was easily the loudest on the system when going eastbound. It was rather annoying to pass through constant noise for 4 minutes.

Now that portion is dead silent, in both directions - you pretty much don't hear the noise of the LIM at all, or most anything. On both the 1st and 2nd gen Mk IIs it is dead silent - and on a Mk I, while still not completely silent, it is noticeably quieter. I commute this portion every single day and I am confident that this is the quietest and smoothest I've ever ridden on the (E/M-Line) SkyTrain system. I don't understand how the noise levels were brought down so much and so fast - but whatever BCRTC maintenance ended up doing there, it's has passed the test with flying colours

I have a feeling that environmentalists would have a fit if they knew this was happening out here. Malaysia isn't terribly different of a climate from here, at least when it comes to precipitation, so spraying lubrication around curves... well that either has to aerosol and become airborne, or get washed away and end up pooling in the trackbed or on the ground below. The original solution (graphite sticks) was only making noise when it wasn't replaced in time, which ... means that the noise we hear is a maintenance issue.

You know, like when people don't replace their brake pads in their car before it becomes metal-on-metal screeching.

Realistically, the correct solution is to not put curves in tracks at all. That just isn't going to happen anywhere West of the Rockies.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I have a feeling that environmentalists would have a fit if they knew this was happening out here. Malaysia isn't terribly different of a climate from here, at least when it comes to precipitation, so spraying lubrication around curves... well that either has to aerosol and become airborne, or get washed away and end up pooling in the trackbed or on the ground below. The original solution (graphite sticks) was only making noise when it wasn't replaced in time, which ... means that the noise we hear is a maintenance issue.

You know, like when people don't replace their brake pads in their car before it becomes metal-on-metal screeching.

Realistically, the correct solution is to not put curves in tracks at all. That just isn't going to happen anywhere West of the Rockies.

At one point, SkyTrain was testing a rail lubricant developed by a local inventor: https://www.google.ca/patents/US5173204

It sounds like grinding also has the risk of making the problem worse:

The Vancouver, B.C., SkyTrain’s early attempts to control corrugation-induced noise via rail grinding didn’t make much progress. By inadvertently using the “fire-fighting” model of spot-grinding the worst offenders (the noisiest locations, in this case), SkyTrain in fact saw the problem get worse. “We were flattening our rail and basically encouraging corrugation growth,” said Matthew Doyle, Mechanical Engineer at BC Rapid Transit Company. Noise got worse and rail damage began to accrue at an increasing rate.

(quote from http://interfacejournal.com/archives/1512)

[xd_1771]

At least we're able to deal with this to some extent and inexpensively, since the LIM bogies on our trains have steerable trucks and reduce this kind of wear-and-tear. I can't imagine the kind of damage/maintenance cost that would come with running conventional electric trains as fast as our trains go through those curves at places like 22nd <-> New West, 22nd <-> Edmonds and Commercial <-> Main

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I have a feeling that environmentalists would have a fit if they knew this was happening out here.

Sound Transit uses a biodegradable gel lubricant:

...
When a train approaches, its vibrations set off a sensor in the railbed. A coaxial cable transmits a signal into the cabinet, and for each train, the device pumps a cubic centimeter of gel through a tube and onto each track.

The biodegradable gel sticks to the train wheels for about the next 1,000 feet, Jackson said, until the train leaves the curved area that is prone to loud noise.
...

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news...lls-lube-machines-to-quiet-noisy-tracks/

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

At least we're able to deal with this to some extent and inexpensively, since the LIM bogies on our trains have steerable trucks and reduce this kind of wear-and-tear. I can't imagine the kind of damage/maintenance cost that would come with running conventional electric trains as fast as our trains go through those curves at places like 22nd <-> New West, 22nd <-> Edmonds and Commercial <-> Main

To be honest there are two kinds of noise:
a) metal on metal - which is from having non-banking curves, as it forces one wheel to turn faster than another on the same axle, causing slippage. The steerable trucks on the MK I's (not entirely sure if they are on the MK II/MK III's) reduce the noise by easing in and out of the curves instead, which reduces but doesn't entirely eliminate this.
and
b) LIM/wind resistance/resonance - This is what is heard in the tunnel, but can also be heard from 500 meters away. It's not significantly loud except where the sound bounces back through open windows.

It could always be worse. The TTC has ground-noise/vibrations to contend with due to the older portions not being on concrete. Most light rail systems aren't fast enough to generate anything but wheel noise.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

There are quite a few more stations on the Toronto Subway. I took the Subway from Union to Kipling then the bus to the Airport years ago. Just the subway portion as it was was so long. All the speedup slowdown and stopping is surprisingly annoying. Getting on the bus to the airport was actually refreshing. Skytrain with it's longer distances, especially on some stretches is so much less jarring.

Yes, it seems like the TTC subway was built in a different era for different purposes. It was built when people took the train places and personal automobiles weren't as ubiquitous as they are now. This is great, but the 60s saw rapid road expansion. Cars became faster, more convenient, and safer. The city was built on a grid, so NA cities were more accommodating to the car. It's hard for the subway to come close to competing, especially as people started living out in the suburbs. The subway in Toronto completely can replace most bus on those routes because of its 500–600m station spacing in parts. SkyTrain, even down Broadway, will likely still have a heavier complement of buses to complement the line than the TTC. Station spacing on the Broadway line is denser than Expo, but not as dense as the TTC.

European cities, on the other hand could make straighter lines in underground lines. The train is by design faster and more convenient. Sure, they have ring roads and ways into the city, but it's not a straight shot like the train is.

Vancouver's system, on the other hand, seems to be built with speed in mind. A combination of no highway and routing the highway through a channel that was difficult for cars to achieve decent speeds on ( Kingsway corridor ) makes it more competitive with the comforts of person transportation.

Oh, and with how busy the subway is, and with how shitty some of the stations are, bringing your luggage on the subway that far is a real pain in the ass.

Common to many older systems. Tokyo is just as bad... if not worse... with all its stairs.

EDIT: I just checked station spacing between several stations on the busiest line in Osaka, the midosuji line. I was surprised to find stations were often 1.5km or 2km apart, and in the city, 1km at least. I totally figured a dense city like Osaka would have tighter spacing, but apparently not. New York has tight spacing, but gets around this by having express trains.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

To be honest there are two kinds of noise:
a) metal on metal - which is from having non-banking curves, as it forces one wheel to turn faster than another on the same axle, causing slippage.

The radius of the inner rail is always smaller than the radius of the outer rail on a curve, whether the track is banked (superelevated) or not. The bank helps reduce wear and noise from the flanges and helps to avoid lateral G-forces for the passengers, but it doesn't have an effect on slippage due to the difference in traveled distance on the inner and outer rails.

[deasine]

Apparently at YVR there's stickers on the floors telling passengers where the doors are? Anyone have photos and know if it's installed at other Canada Line stations?

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by deasine

Apparently at YVR there's stickers on the floors telling passengers where the doors are? Anyone have photos and know if it's installed at other Canada Line stations?

Yes, they were added several weeks ago. Sorry no pics to share. I noticed that no one really minds the stickers, particularly the big "Keep area clear" ones.

Could work better at regular stations though.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

Yes, they were added several weeks ago. Sorry no pics to share. I noticed that no one really minds the stickers, particularly the big "Keep area clear" ones.

Could work better at regular stations though.

Similar at all to these ones?

[aberdeen5698]

Lest anyone complain about Translink's propensity for Skytrain track closures in order to do track maintenance, this piece by Jarrett Walker on the sorry state of some US transit systems is worth a read. IMHO Translink is doing very well by managing to keep the system well maintained despite the provincially imposed budget crunch.

[MIPS]

I really can't tell just how disconnected people are when they want the SkyTrain to run 24/7.

If you think we don't maintain the system right now, you don't wanna go down that rabbit hole.

[nname]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I really can't tell just how disconnected people are when they want the SkyTrain to run 24/7.

AND not willing to pay for the cost of operating such service (if it is actually possible).

[officedweller]

Of interest:
http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/edit...till-a-reality-in-a-mass-transit-future/

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I really can't tell just how disconnected people are when they want the SkyTrain to run 24/7.

If you think we don't maintain the system right now, you don't wanna go down that rabbit hole.

We don't have a rapid-transit "grid", so the only part of the system that can run 24 is the Expo line between Broadway and Columbia, or Commercial to Columbia. Which would mean closing only one of those segments while the other is operational, and then switch to maintaining the other segment.

Unfortunately this is isn't practical as-is. When the Broadway subway comes into operation, that will create an alternate route from the downtown waterfront which may allow for an 24 hour operation cycle by cycling through the Canada Line/Millennium Line and Expo Line for maintenance. It won't help anyone needing to get to Richmond, Coquitlam or Surrey however during the maintenance period.

[MIPS]

I'm totally fine with how the N19 runs when the system is down. The fact we get about four hours every night to do maintenance is great in comparison to other places. If I recall even the Yamanote Line only gets about three hours of downtime a night.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Of interest:
http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/edit...till-a-reality-in-a-mass-transit-future/

The further in our region you get from the CoV, the more true this is.

At this point, one principle is clear: Whatever is built must include parking.

...

Even in dense, urban areas, Sound Transit should plan for continued use of the automobile despite the anti-car zealotry in vogue at Seattle City Hall. At a minimum, transit stations need places for cars to drop off passengers.

Transit-oriented development efforts that cluster growth near stations should also serve surrounding areas by including commuter parking and drop-off locations.

Someday, all people might have enough transit options that none of them will need to drive. At that point, space used for parking can be repurposed. That’s far easier and cheaper than adding parking later, if it’s needed after all.