DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by twister244

That doesn't equate to Phoenix getting any more prioritization on water than they do now. Colorado has rights.......

It sounds like you think the only source of water for the Phoenix area is the Colorado River/CAP (?)... and that minimal water resource planning has been undertaken by the City of Phoenix and State of Arizona.

Quick search shows 52% of our water comes from within Arizona (SRP), 38% from the Colorado River (CAP), and the rest ground/reclaimed, etc. those numbers may not be 100% accurate, but it's pretty close.

Arizona has it's own mountains and high-elevation and snow and reservoirs, etc. The City and State has done serious concerted water planning for decades.

The TSMC and Intel and all of these chips plants do bring up certain questions, and this "strategic" discussion is kind of interesting. It goes further and deeper than just water supply. I've wondered about some ridiculous circumstances with the TSMC... for example, if a full on war between US and China breaks out, would they just send cruise missles or whatever to blow up the TSMC? Has a strategic defense plan for it already been implemented? Again, that is kind of silly, but I'd imagine plenty of planning for many different things (incl water supply) have been undertaken in relation to such mega projects and investments as TSMC, etc.

[TakeFive]

Eh, I'm a Big Picture guy

This conversation is mostly over my head, especially all the math stuff.

Originally Posted by laniroj

This isn't a money problem it's a leadership problem and an entrenched federal process that doesn't allow for big things to happen anymore.

This is well within the realm of financial sanity it's just uncomfortable. You likely know better than most all the silly stuff we spend money on.

Here's what I do know.

https://www.nps.gov/miss/riverfacts.htm

The Mississippi River is one of the world’s major river systems in size, habitat diversity and biological productivity. It is also one of the world's most important commercial waterways and one of North America's great migration routes for both birds and fishes.

https://www.americanrivers.org/river...%20the%20world.

As the nation’s second-longest river, behind only the conjoining Missouri, the Mississippi provides drinking water for millions and supports a $12.6 billion shipping industry, with 35,300 related jobs. It’s one of the greatest water highways on earth, carrying commerce and food for the world. Half the nation’s corn and soybeans are barged on the section above the Ohio River confluence, known as the Little Mississippi.

A shrinking river is hurting people and the economy in a variety of ways. Barges can’t operate on the river to get goods to market. Drinking water may also be at risk – for example, salt water moving upriver from the Gulf of Mexico could impact drinking water supplies in parts of Louisiana.

Not unlike the Rockies there may be an excess of water from spring runoff but they've also experienced the opposite of not having enough water through the summer/fall.

It's the pragmatic geo-politics that makes steeling water from the Midwest a Non-starter.

[TakeFive]

We are doing Big Things

One year old, US climate law is already turbocharging clean energy technology
July 23, 2023 BY ISABELLA O’MALLEY AND MICHAEL PHILLIS - AP

AP writers provide us with an impressive read and update.

FWIW:

The Associated Press receives support from the Walton Family Foundation for coverage of water and environmental policy.
The AP is solely responsible for all content.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Hogwash. If we added 20% increased water to the general 82 gallons/day/person, to operate a water pipeline it would cost approximately $50/month per household within the 45 million folks (20 million households) out west who could use this water AND that would include capital recovery costs. We don't need anywhere near a 20% increase in total water usage to serve the West's growing needs. Is that a good chunk of money that folks will say no to? Yep. Can government find a way to fund that? Also Yep. State governments in the West alone could find a way to fund this. This assumes residential use pays for it all! If agriculture and industry chipped in to subsidize residential (I'm not suggesting they should) that $50/month residential bill starts to come down VERY quickly. This isn't a money problem it's a leadership problem and an entrenched federal process that doesn't allow for big things to happen anymore.

This is well within the realm of financial sanity it's just uncomfortable. You likely know better than most all the silly stuff we spend money on.

45 million folks? Because all of us "folks out west" are so conveniently clustered and are going to be able to tap into that very cheap and convenient cross-plains line at a very reasonable cost. That's exactly how this works, sure...

This is clearly not what you do. You read something online once and it stuck with you. Cool. Not worth debating. Keanu Reeves made nuclear fusion look easy in the 90s too. That's the level of discourse we are having here.

[trubador]

I always assumed the plan was to divert (via pipes) water from the Mississippi to enter the Colorado river at some point. Then utilize the existing storage and distribution infrastructure to deliver water to the Western states.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by twister244

That doesn't equate to Phoenix getting any more prioritization on water than they do now. Colorado has rights.......

If the plants become important, fine, but we are already seeing areas in AZ limiting development because they just can't sustain the current trajectory. There are several cities that are going to have to realize sooner that they can't grow indefinitely with looming water/flood issues. And if the municipalities don't deal with it, then the private market will. We are already seeing this in the insurance market (I.E., Florida / California).

Phoenix will have massive national strategic importance once those chip plants are done. Water laws will mean nothing if something international like COVID happens again. Gov will move heaven and earth to ensure those facilities keep operating and local single family moratoriums on account of water resources will mean nothing, nor will the Colorado River Compact.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

45 million folks? Because all of us "folks out west" are so conveniently clustered and are going to be able to tap into that very cheap and convenient cross-plains line at a very reasonable cost. That's exactly how this works, sure...

This is clearly not what you do. You read something online once and it stuck with you. Cool. Not worth debating. Keanu Reeves made nuclear fusion look easy in the 90s too. That's the level of discourse we are having here.

The distribution network for the 45 million folks who ALREADY use Colorado River water already exists friend. All we have to do is get it to Dillon Reservoir - turns out water flows downhill. The water need is in 5 primary areas - Front Range, SLC, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Southern California. I'm not asserting this is simple and easy, but rather that it is possible and should get the attention of national resources.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by laniroj

The distribution network for the 45 million folks who ALREADY use Colorado River water already exists friend. All we have to do is get it to Dillon Reservoir - turns out water flows downhill. The water need is in 5 primary areas - Front Range, SLC, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Southern California. I'm not asserting this is simple and easy, but rather that it is possible and should get the attention of national resources.

Oh good, so you want to pump it up 9,000 feet. Brilliant.

EDIT: Did a rough for-fun calc, assuming something like 1,000 MGD pumped up 9,000 feet. I guess that’s only $3.5 billion/year in electricity costs. It’s certainly expensive - $78 per capita/per year ongoing spread across all 45 million people. That would probably be a 50-100% increase in water costs for your average Denver Water customer. But it is possible.

[trubador]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Oh good, so you want to pump it up 9,000 feet. Brilliant.

EDIT: Did a rough for-fun calc, assuming something like 1,000 MGD pumped up 9,000 feet. I guess that’s only $3.5 billion/year in electricity costs. It’s certainly expensive - $78 per capita/per year ongoing spread across all 45 million people. That would probably be a 50-100% increase in water costs for your average Denver Water customer. But it is possible.

Do you mind sharing the math on this one?

[jhwk]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Oh good, so you want to pump it up 9,000 feet. Brilliant.

EDIT: Did a rough for-fun calc, assuming something like 1,000 MGD pumped up 9,000 feet. I guess that’s only $3.5 billion/year in electricity costs. It’s certainly expensive - $78 per capita/per year ongoing spread across all 45 million people. That would probably be a 50-100% increase in water costs for your average Denver Water customer. But it is possible.

Minor swerve but I have always wondered if we could solve the renewable energy storage issue by turning Denver’s water supply into a giant pumped storage plant. I suppose you would want to be pumping at night when there is no wind or solar.

[TakeFive]

Modern upscale apartments aim to elevate neighborhood known for drugs, crime
JULY 27, 2023 By Rick Sallinger - CBS News

What had become a corner of blight is now going away. Piece by demolished piece. "It was horrible there are not enough adjectives to describe it," said Robert Smith who heads Lakewood economic development.

It was the holiday plaza shopping center at 10th Avenue and Sheridan Boulevard in Lakewood. Once thriving, but for many years it became a center of decay in the Two Creeks neighborhood.

Props to City of Lakewood

This is just one location where Lakewood is providing loans to get old declining properties demolished to make way for the new. "There are places where that redevelopment needs to happen sooner rather than later, so the city is looking for ways to make that happen," Robert Smith explained.

Ten Sheridan Apartments - 955 Sheridan Blvd

..........
Images courtesy of T.O.D. Properties

Demolition Ceremony Marks New Beginnings for 10th and Sheridan Intersection in Lakewood
July 26, 2023 - Mile High CRE


Courtesy Trailbreak Partners.

On July 25, Trailbreak Partners and Lakewood’s Economic Development Division began the highly anticipated demolition of the Holiday Shopping Center at the southwest corner of West 10th Ave. and Sheridan Blvd. The demolition ceremony took place at 955 N. Sheridan Blvd., marking a significant milestone in the ongoing revitalization efforts of the area. This momentous occasion marks the beginning of a new chapter for the Two Creeks neighborhood and the West Colfax corridor of Lakewood.

A Collaborative Effort

In October 2021, Trailbreak Partners acquired the buildings and 2.5 acres. In partnership with TOD Properties, Davis Partnership and ARCO Murray, they plan to build a 361-unit apartment building that will breathe new life into the community.

The seven-story apartment building will include one level of underground parking, a pool, a full-sized fitness center, and multiple public amenity spaces for residents.

This will be a nice sized project and a huge improvement.

[TakeFive]

Ahh, they tried to sneak one by us

There was a June groundbreaking of a quite nice project in Denver.


Courtesy Davis Partnership Architects

Sounds Cool
They plan to integrate smart home tech with the residences, including smart thermostats, mobile guest entry and key fob access. The project will offer 234 units in studio, one- and two-bedroom units with some units in den or loft layouts. The apartments will be built with nine-foot ceilings, built-in shelving and desks, moveable kitchen islands, walk-in closets, double bathroom vanities, in-home washers and dryers and private patios or balconies.

First person to identify this project gets a Snicker's Bar

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by trubador

Do you mind sharing the math on this one?

no offense to bunt because I enjoy the banter, but I believe he's an attorney. Attorneys don't do math and they're not good at saying yes. Be that as it may, he has valid points outside of his Simpsons math.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

no offense to bunt because I enjoy the banter, but I believe he's an attorney. Attorneys don't do math and they're not good at saying yes. Be that as it may, he has valid points outside of his Simpsons math.

Believe he was an engineer before going to the dark side. Math probably will check out.

Though I think his electrical rate cost is off.

[bunt_q]

Ha yes the math will check out. Obviously lots of assumptions around pump efficiency, and there’s probably another +/- 2,000 feet of head to overcome depending on the pipe. Really just order of magnitude. But yeah, while it would obviously be easy to mistake me for Harvey Specter, I’m not that kind of lawyer; I build shit.

Wong is probably right, though, on the going rate for electric, which I had to google. What do you think a good ballpark cost per kW hour is these days?

[mhays]

That Trailbreak Partners group-demo photo looks like a serious OSHA problem! These are DUMBSHITS, without grownup supervision apparently.

You don't put people below obvious collapse hazards. And anyone within a certain distance needs a hardhat, boots, etc.

I imagine the picture alone could be enough for a large citation and fine.

As for the Davis project, what's a "studio bedroom apartment"? Aggggh!

[TakeFive]

When you're serious about water you do serious things

https://www.azfamily.com/2023/06/29/...ter-rate-hike/

PHOENIX (3TV/CBS 5) - The Phoenix City Council voted 7-2 Wednesday evening to raise water rates starting in October. The council hopes the rate hikes will battle inflation and promote water conservation. The city’s first water rate increase will be 6.5% in October (about two dollars a month for the average user), then another 6.5% this March, before a 13% increase in March 2025.

https://www.abc15.com/news/local-new...ey%20by%202030.

The city of Phoenix announced its plans Wednesday to recycle wastewater for drinking purposes in the near future as Arizona is on the heels of even more cuts due to the shrinking Colorado River. The plan is set to be implemented within the Valley by 2030.

The city of Phoenix has been operating a wastewater treatment plant for decades. The recycled water is currently used for cooling purposes at the Palo Verde nuclear facility and put back into the Salt River for agricultural or habitat use. Now, the city will be expanding the treatment plant to add new treatment technology.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/as...g-water-source

"[It is] the city's largest infrastructure project," said Amy Dorman with the City of San Diego.

That is the future site of a very expensive water treatment plant that will turn sewer water into drinking water

Note: As of the mid-point of this year only 1% of the state of AZ is under drought conditions. That is the result of back-to-back years of cooler and wetter weather than normal.

Aurora ripping up 20+ acres of traditional grass in public spaces to replace with water-wise options

This is a $700,000 investment.

[TakeFive]

Thanks for Reading

Originally Posted by mhays

That Trailbreak Partners group-demo photo looks like a serious OSHA problem! These are DUMBSHITS, without grownup supervision apparently.

You don't put people below obvious collapse hazards. And anyone within a certain distance needs a hardhat, boots, etc.

I imagine the picture alone could be enough for a large citation and fine.

As for the Davis project, what's a "studio bedroom apartment"? Aggggh!

But you need to read more carefully. Notice the comma after 'studio' and the dashes after 'one' and two' and the grammar looks correct to me.

BTW, that photo op was OSHA pre-approved.

[TakeFive]

Denver plans to convert 194-unit, $26M hotel into city’s next homeless shelter
Jul 29, 2023 By: Landon Haaf - 7Denver News

Best Western hotel - 4595 Quebec Street


Photo by: Denver7

Denver’s Housing Authority hopes a 194-unit hotel in Central Park will become the city’s next permanent homeless shelter.

The DHA has approved the purchase of the Best Western hotel at 4595 Quebec Street for $26 million, with plans to convert it into what it calls “supportive housing.” The deal has not yet closed, but the housing authority – which is appointed by the mayor – believes the 194 units will make significant headway toward Mike Johnston’s goal of housing 1,000 unsheltered people by the end of the calendar year.

The city would start leasing the complex through its Department of Housing Stability (HOST) on Sept. 1.

Clearly, this project has been brewing for awhile.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Thanks for Reading

But you need to read more carefully. Notice the comma after 'studio' and the dashes after 'one' and two' and the grammar looks correct to me.

No. No.

They said: "...in studio, one- and two-bedroom units..."

They wrote it like a list of three nouns, but really it should be just two: studios and units. The one and two are just adjectives. You have to put "and" before the last noun.

Here are two easy options for correct wording:
--in studio and one- and two-bedroom units
--in studios and one- and two-bedroom units

Here's what probably happened. The writer heard somewhere that "and" shouldn't appear in a sentence twice. This is taught in the early grades so kids don't say "I like waffles and pancakes and umbrellas and green and purple." But they forgot that more complex sentences can need "and" multiple times to make sense. This is endemic in writing, including the mass media mostly (iirc) since they got rid of much of their editing staff.