DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[TakeFive]

I surely can appreciate your ability to analyze data

Originally Posted by mojiferous

You know your "study" has solid methodology when the results are almost perfectly sorted by population, population density, and have a easily readable bias for local politics.

I'm not surprised that urban areas suffer in comparison to 'some' suburban communities. Mentioning politics is redundant since most urban areas are true blue.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

For example they used "perception of safety" numbers from numbeo.com, which gets its data from... feelings? who knows?

They also have share of homeless population as a factor in safety and not economy, which means that they already have a built-in bias of "homeless == crime" despite already having violent crime and property crime weighted heavily in safety.

Big disagree here. For starters these types of statistics are questionable for a number of reasons as to how valid they are.

"perception of safety"

IMO, this is HUGELY important. For most people statistics are mumbo jumbo meaningless; what they know is how safe they feel 1) riding a bus 2) walking down the street 3) in their own neighborhood etc.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

They use school data from greatschools.org, probably because they never wanted to publish this study in a respectable journal and gaining access to less biased data sources on school performance is expensive and time consuming.

I wasn't familiar with Greatschools. Clearly they merely use data that's readily available. What makes them unique is that their comparisons are within each state. Again, that 'some' suburban schools score higher shouldn't surprise anybody. That said, while I love school discussions obviously lower socioeconomic areas will be more challenged. POINT: have you noticed how our National Spelling Bees are now dominated by immigrant children of parents from India? It is fair to observe that families care about schools a lot but raw test scores aren't even the most important thing to consider in my humble opinion.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

And even worse "infrastructure" weights water quality and air pollution way lower than a "recreation" score (that is based on another wallethub study, no less) Recreation seems to have a higher weight in the scores than pollution, transit, and biking combined!

Makes good sense to me. For everyday life people take W&S for granted. Air pollution is more of a regional problem. Most people don't use transit or bike but recreation is something most people have an interest in.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Infrastructure uses their own walk scores based on block length and intersection density (?) instead of using the NWI data or even Walkscore (but they mention them in the sources? Maybe they looked at the NWI data and decided that it would probably make places like DC and SF too positive)

With a West of the Mississippi focus I don't care about D.C.

Speaking of San Francisco

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/busin...oan/index.html

Park Hotels and Resorts, the investment firm that owns Hilton San Francisco Union Square and Parc 55 hotels, said Monday that is has ceased payments on a $725 million loan as looks to reduce its presence in the city. The hotels have nearly 3,000 rooms, combined.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/23/busin...all/index.html

Earlier this month, Westfield said it planned to surrender its mall, the San Francisco Centre, back to its lender. The mall operator cited the “challenging operating conditions in downtown San Francisco, which have led to declines in sales, occupancy and foot traffic.”

San Francisco has huge problems; it's a total Cluster-Mess.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

And the scores are built in such a way that helps smaller less-populated towns and hurts large population centers. Do you know why Casper WY has the lowest long-standing debt per capita? Have you been to Casper? They aren't exactly building new airports or convention centers or transit systems.

That smaller cities might rate higher seems like common sense to me. Casper and most of Wyoming is driven by O&G; coal was big at one time. Alaska thrives from the same benefits.

BTW, not all cites or at least metro areas are necessarily liberal.

[Matt]

Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction. Views taken from the top of the building, from the tower cranes, and also showing the steelworkers and crane operators. Just next door, notice Wells Fargo Center (still under construction) close-up shots. I've seen many videos like this for other cities, but nothing like this for Denver or its 1980s-vintage towers:

https://youtu.be/uT82uajUYrY

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Matt

Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction. Views taken from the top of the building, from the tower cranes, and also showing the steelworkers and crane operators. Just next door, notice Wells Fargo Center (still under construction) close-up shots. I've seen many videos like this for other cities, but nothing like this for Denver or its 1980s-vintage towers:

https://youtu.be/uT82uajUYrY

This is really cool, thanks for sharing! Some of my favorite modern day pics of Denver are the early 80's when Republic, Cash Register, and 1800 Cali are all under construction (and roughly 10 other buildings too)!

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

This is really cool, thanks for sharing! Some of my favorite modern day pics of Denver are the early 80's when Republic, Cash Register, and 1800 Cali are all under construction (and roughly 10 other buildings too)!

Just watch it till the end, gets kind of interesting and a reason I miss home videos.

[i4isoar]

Originally Posted by Matt

Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction. Views taken from the top of the building, from the tower cranes, and also showing the steelworkers and crane operators. Just next door, notice Wells Fargo Center (still under construction) close-up shots. I've seen many videos like this for other cities, but nothing like this for Denver or its 1980s-vintage towers:

https://youtu.be/uT82uajUYrY

Originally Posted by laniroj

This is really cool, thanks for sharing! Some of my favorite modern day pics of Denver are the early 80's when Republic, Cash Register, and 1800 Cali are all under construction (and roughly 10 other buildings too)!

Thanks for sharing, this is awesome. That, and it's kind of funny to see the PCL logo displayed prominently and exactly the same as what we see posted up all over the 16th St Mall these days. Good on them for not changing their logo in 40 years.

I'm a little confused though: the video shows Republic Plaza getting topped out while the Cash Register is still under construction, but I was under the impression that the Cash Register was completed a year ahead of Republic Plaza? Or at least according to the years listed on this website, but does anyone know anything more on this?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Just watch it till the end, gets kind of interesting and a reason I miss home videos.

Haha. One day, when Denver builds a new tallest, we should order a similar cake to celebrate.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by i4isoar

Thanks for sharing, this is awesome. That, and it's kind of funny to see the PCL logo displayed prominently and exactly the same as what we see posted up all over the 16th St Mall these days. Good on them for not changing their logo in 40 years.

I'm a little confused though: the video shows Republic Plaza getting topped out while the Cash Register is still under construction, but I was under the impression that the Cash Register was completed a year ahead of Republic Plaza? Or at least according to the years listed on this website, but does anyone know anything more on this?



Haha. One day, when Denver builds a new tallest, we should order a similar cake to celebrate.

Behemoths take time, they all overlapped each other. 1980-1983 was undoubtedly the most exciting time for Denver skyscraper construction. I'd post a photo but it's too damn difficult on here for my peanut brain:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16618720513...Cclp%3A2047675

[TheGeographer]

Really cool to see the old construction videos of Denver. I snoop on the page from time to time. Currently live in SLC but was born and raised in Denver. Many days I wish I still lived in Denver.

[TakeFive]

Thanks Matt; pretty nifty

Originally Posted by Matt

Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction.

I used to drive down 17th Street, usually on weekends, with my sunroof open so I (or my passengers) could look up at the cranes and construction.

-------------------------------

A Must Read if you're from Salt Lake City

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

Really cool to see the old construction videos of Denver. I snoop on the page from time to time. Currently live in SLC but was born and raised in Denver. Many days I wish I still lived in Denver.

100 years of urban sprawl — Is this your city’s future or can planners turn the tide?
Jun 27, 2023 By Collin Leonard and Lois M. Collins - Deseret News

An in-depth (and interesting) Retrospect of development along the Wasatch Range and Salt Lake City.

It was mid-January 1997, the coldest day of the year, when city planners descended on Salt Lake City. ... The planners kicked off “The Utah Quality Growth Public/Private Partnership,” to address the challenge of a rapidly growing population. They joined with local press, government... representatives, business leaders... The man in common was renowned urban designer Peter Calthorpe.

The collaboration would later go by the catchier “Envision Utah.” Recently, reclining in his San Francisco office, Calthorpe told the Deseret News, “It was truly radical and forward-thinking at the time.” He considers it one of his greatest successes.

[Curtis Park]

I love that Westside is putting up a fence around the golf course. I love it more that SOS people are pissed. It would be great if they transplanted a bunch of coyotes or mountain lions to live in their "open space".
https://denverite.com/2023/07/04/par...cing-westside/

[twalm]

Originally Posted by Curtis Park

I love that Westside is putting up a fence around the golf course. I love it more that SOS people are pissed. It would be great if they transplanted a bunch of coyotes or mountain lions to live in ther "open space".
https://denverite.com/2023/07/04/par...cing-westside/

On April 4, Denver voters rejected the proposal to covert this land into Denver’s 4th largest public park, a new community grocery store, more than 2500 units of new attainable and affordable housing, and at least $150 million in community benefits. As a result, and in compliance with the explicit provisions of the conservation easement, the land will be returned exclusively to golf-related uses.

As a matter of liability and safety, we must regretfully close all public access effective immediately.

This is not an outcome that the landowners wanted, nor the one that Denver needs. If you’re upset, please contact the organizers behind the campaign opposing new public parks and affordable housing on this land.

This is hilarious

[TakeFive]

If you live in the City of Denver YOU owe $4,300; NOW PAY UP



laniroj mentioned I like going down rabbit holes so I decided to show my bone fides.

Forget WalletHub for now

I found a fun site that measures the fiscal health of 75 cities which are divided into "Sunshine Cites" or "Sinkhole Cities" -

Good humor aside this is a credible site run by TIA entitled "Truth in Accounting" and data (for Denver) is provided by Daniels College of Business University of Denver School of Accountancy. Here's the Denver specific page.

Out of 75 cities Denver comes in 47th. There are only 25 Sunshine Cites meaning a positive net worth. I also downloaded the full pdf of all cities. Denver gets a 'C' grade but understanding only Sunshine cites are rated 'A' or 'B that's not to bad. Coincidentally, Denver is tied with Phoenix with both cities in the upper third of Sinkhole Cites.

So why doesn't Denver rate higher?

Denver’s elected officials have repeatedly made financial decisions that left the city with a debt burden of $1.1 billion. That burden came to $4,300 for every city taxpayer.

Denver’s financial problems stem mostly from unfunded retirement obligations that have accumulated over the years

[DenverInfill]

Truth in Accounting.org is a right-wing anti-debt nonprofit that is part of the State Policy Network.

"The State Policy Network is a web of right-wing 'think tanks' and tax-exempt organizations... the tip of the spear of far-right, nationally funded policy agenda in the states that undergirds extremists in the Republican Party. Although SPN's member organizations claim to be nonpartisan and independent, the Center for Media and Democracy's in-depth investigation, "EXPOSED: The State Policy Network -- The Powerful Right-Wing Network Helping to Hijack State Politics and Government," reveals that SPN and its member think tanks are major drivers of the right-wing, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)-backed corporate agenda in state houses nationwide, with deep ties to the Koch brothers and the national right-wing network of funders."

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph..._in_Accounting

They cook their numbers by including in their government debt figures all future entitlement liabilities, such as pension plans, as if they are all due right now. Their entire premise is that all government debt is bad, even the good kind to build civic infrastructure.

The entire report is rubbish. You got hoodwinked again, TakeFive.

Any report that uses a "Sinkhole Cities" vs. "Sunshine Cities" methodology should be immediately suspect as click-bait at best, and at worst, anti-government right-wing propaganda.

By the way, Denver is legally bound to have no more that a 3% debt-to-valuation ratio. Denver's current debt-to-valuation is about 1.5%, and all of its bonds and credit ratings are in the A - AAA range.

Also, notice the bit about "Denver’s elected officials have repeatedly made financial decisions that left the city with a debt burden..."? Another lie. Every penny of Denver's debt has been approved by voters.

[TakeFive]

Appreciate the post; I always enjoy the opportunity to learn - but I have a few problems with all this.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

Truth in Accounting.org is a right-wing anti-debt nonprofit that is part of the State Policy Network.

"The State Policy Network is a web of right-wing 'think tanks' and tax-exempt organizations...

Just as an aside I would consider myself fiscally conservative although I don't see any relevance to this and I'm definitely no right wing nut.

Other than the statement about Truth in Accounting being part of the "Network" I'm not finding any real connection to the State Policy Network. Is it that both are fiscally conservative and why is this necessarily some right wing conspiracy? Btw, while the name State Policy Network is new to me I'm certainly familiar with ALEC. You're talking about politics; I'm talking about accounting which in my mind is neither right or left.

Let's take it from the bottom up.

The School of Accountancy - Daniels College of Business

The School of Accountancy is one of only 194 accounting programs in the world accredited by the AACSB, widely regarded as the gold standard for business accreditation. We are proud to have received high rankings from Bloomberg Businessweek, the Princeton Review, and U.S. News and World Report.

None of these organizations are on the right; in fact I believe they all lean liberal.

As I like to proclaim statistics can lack for context; they don't talk. They can be cherry picked but that's mostly when correlation is used to assume causation or when certain data is intentionally overlooked and not included.

Are you seriously attacking the integrity of the Daniels College of Business School of Accountancy?

Or are you merely upset at TIA's sense of humor by using Sunshine Cities and Sinkhole cities? Does TIA have a conservative philosophy around debt? Yes, I can see that. I'm not sure that makes them a Right Wing crazy. Btw think tanks on either the right or left can be highly credible.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

By the way, Denver is legally bound to have no more that a 3% debt-to-valuation ratio. Denver's current debt-to-valuation is about 1.5%, and all of its bonds and credit ratings are in the A - AAA range.

Also, notice the bit about "Denver’s elected officials have repeatedly made financial decisions that left the city with a debt burden..."? Another lie. Every penny of Denver's debt has been approved by voters.

You liberals are touchy sensitive. Calling what they claim as a lie is bit presumptive. I didn't see anywhere that they said Denver's debt isn't approved by voters but I'm not sure that's entirely accurate either. In fact I'll bet you $'s to donuts that not every penny is voter approved.

Anyhow, there's always the ability to look at thing from a different angle and I already have a post in mind which will do just that.

[mhays]

Every word is from the OFFICIAL dictionary! Are you attacking the integrity of the DICTIONARY?!

[twalm]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

You liberals are touchy sensitive.

Get out if here with this. Denver Infill said absolutely nothing about the business collage, they just called you out for presenting cherry picked data so it doesn't matter where the data came from. Someone on this forum summed it up nicely:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

As I like to proclaim statistics can lack for context; they don't talk. They can be cherry picked but that's mostly when correlation is used to assume causation or when certain data is intentionally overlooked and not included.

[TakeFive]

A City that is rapidly growing would be derelict if it didn't invest in itself

One easy way to get a snapshot of the quality of a city's investment debt is by checking its Credit Ratings.

Official Statements and Credit Ratings Information

• General Obligation Bonds - This all-important debt has all been rated Triple A by all the Big Three credit rating agencies
• Wastewater Enterprise Revenue Bonds - Are rated Triple A by all three of the ratings agencies
• Tax Revenue Bonds for Colorado Convention Center and National Western Center - are rated AA- with Moody's rating of Double A-3
• Denver International Airport Bonds - are rated Double A for Senior debt and Single A for subordinate debt
• Certificates of Participation (Colorado Convention Center Expansion) - are rated Double A.

Of course credit ratings are merely (albeit important) judgment of the city's ability to repay the debt. It doesn't speak to the quality of the investments or resulting infrastructure.

Elevate Denver

Executing more than 460 projects over 10 years, this $937 million program will:

• Revitalize and modernize our streets and highways
• Increase pedestrian safety and accessibility
• Revitalize our parks, playgrounds and recreation centers
• Improve our libraries, cultural centers, safety facilities and the Denver Health

For those who followed the process it was the most involved undertaking combining public input and city agency priorities I can ever recall. It was roughly a 3-year process.

By demand over half of the investments ($431 million) were for transportation. IMO it was a nice balance between traditional, practical needs and multi-mobility priorities. For example, wanting to replace the bridge on Larimer Street between downtown and the Auraria campus, the replacement will be multi-moble.

All in all, I'm impressed with most of Denver's investments; I happen to be fond of the money invested to alleviate flood risk in the neighborhoods as one example.

--------------------------

In fact I'll bet you $'s to donuts that not every penny is voter approved.

From poking around it appears to me that wastewater and drainage investments and any debt are approved by the Denver City Council and not voters.

Since the original approval for construction of DIA any current spending/debt is approved by the Denver City Council.

Lastly, I'm not sure precisely how changes are made for funding retirement system obligations. but the Denver City Council gives their approval.

[TakeFive]

Point Taken

Originally Posted by twalm

Get out if here with this. Denver Infill said absolutely nothing about the business collage, they just called you out for presenting cherry picked data so it doesn't matter where the data came from. Someone on this forum summed it up nicely:

Dissenting opinions always welcomed.

With respect to DenverInfill I assume you're referring to Ken Schroeppel or "Ken" who created DenverInfill way back in 2004; it's an awesome site.

The one item of debt or city obligations that is more likely to be mentioned by Conservatives is Denver Employees Retirement Plan. Most of us ignore this. I wouldn't say it's wrong to consider but opinions likely vary as to its relevance. It's one of those things that's not a problem until it is.

Note: Investopedia suggests that retirement plan funding at an 80% level is decent and Denver is not far below that depending on gyrating market conditions.

[TakeFive]

Yet more affordable housing

KeyBank Provides $117M Financing for Two Affordable Housing Developments in Colorado
July 6, 2023 - Mile High CRE

KeyBank Community Development Lending and Investment (CDLI) recently provided $117.7 million of financing to Brinshore Development and Mile High Development, leading developers of affordable multifamily communities, for the construction of two properties in Colorado.

CDLI provided $56.9 million of financing to fund the new construction of Ralston Gardens Apartments, a 102-unit family project in Arvada, which will serve low-income families.

Northfield Flats is conveniently located within the Northfield retail complex in Central Park, Denver’s premier mixed-use master-planned community. The property is located directly adjacent to the Shops at Northfield, a retail, entertainment, and dining center.

There's been a number of new 'designated' affordable housing projects starting this year and a couple of market rate projects targeted towards being more affordable. All good of course.

Other than for a couple of new apartment projects in the Golden Triangle it seems like most new apartments breaking ground have been in suburban Denver. One at the old Kmart site off Monaco and Evans and another out near DIA.

[TakeFive]

Epilogue

Apparently I have a problem with acronyms

Originally Posted by mhays

Every word is from the OFFICIAL dictionary! Are you attacking the integrity of the DICTIONARY?!

Oops - the (big) mistake I made was to confuse TIA with TIAA. I see where TIA is affiliated with other conservative think tanks including the Tax Foundation.

I have another problem

I'm easily irritated when both the right and left use the popular fallacy of "Guilt by Association"

ALEC - for those who are unaware ALEC works with conservative legislators in attempting (sometimes successfully) to pass some of the most disgusting legislation in Red States.

Don't Shoot the Messenger - basically means attacking someone for their 'association' but ignoring the substance.

Back to Sunshine Cities and Sinkhole Cities

Among the the Sunshine Cites the Top Ten or best financially are:

Washington DC (1) - San Francisco (2) - Irvine (3) - Los Angeles (4) Fresno (5) - Long Beach (6) Tampa (7) - Aurora (8) - Charlotte (9) - Plano (10)

This just doesn't have the feel of dastardly conservative results to me.

Among the bottom feeders or Bottom Five are:

NYC and Chicago (and it's not even close) followed by Honolulu, Portland and New Orleans.

Storytime

In the last election Arizona managed to help elect Biden, a Dem governor and few other Dems in top offices. In her first year Governor Katie Hobbs has vetoed over a 100 bills. The legislature is still controlled by Republicans and the idiots have nothing better to do than pass stupid stuff that they know will be vetoed. Have I ever mentioned how stupid and silly politics can be? Gov Hobbs has managed to use Executive Orders to promote liberal basics (abortion etc). Who knows what the courts will do with these?

OTOH

When the previous Republican Governor lowered taxes each of his six years in office it didn't upset me. Why should it? The economy was en fuego so there was plenty of money to pay the bills and give taxpayers some relief. I may have tried but I just couldn't be offended by that.

[twalm]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Don't Shoot the Messenger - basically means attacking someone for their 'association' but ignoring the substance.

LMAO not really applicable here. You act as if you were a real messenger and had no choice but to deliver the message.