Tempe Development Thread

[vertex]

^^^Been there, done that. Mill was originally 2 lanes, with diagonal parking. In the '80s, they changed it to 4 lanes with a narrow bike lane. A few years ago, they knocked it back to 2 lanes again. Bike riding on the sidewalks was/is a big problem.

[NIXPHX77]

Originally Posted by wissundevil06

What are the possibilities that they could remove the bike lane and metered parking on Mill ave. and make it two lanes? People can ride their bikes on the sidewalks, so I don't see that being a problem.

that would be a bad idea, imo. plus, i think it is against the law to ride bikes on the sidewalks. the metered streetside parking provides just that, as well as a safety zone betw. speeding vehicles and pedestrians.
more streets in the valley should have metered streetside parking.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by andrewkfromaz

Sounds like a bad idea to me. What about the impact for pedestrians? There are people who walk (more often jog) north of Rio Salado. Traffic circles aren't ideal places for pedestrians - they're harder to see and have more driving area to cross. I think the intersection is fine, when it gets built up, it will look like the "3rd hottest in the Valley."

Thats interesting... conventional planning wisdom is that they are *better* for pedestrians, but not knowing the area well it's hard for me to say. Any idea what peak hour traffic counts look like here?

[admdavid]

I don't think there is enough physical space to put a traffic circle there without really half-assing it and making it look really crammed and cheap. There's gotta be a better option for creating an iconic "entrance to the city".

[wissundevil06]

I think the whole needing a bike lane is pure bull. A good majority of cities and towns in this country don't have bike lanes and do just fine

[tempedude]

Originally Posted by wissundevil06

I think the whole needing a bike lane is pure bull. A good majority of cities and towns in this country don't have bike lanes and do just fine

I don't feel that way...bike lanes exist in many urban areas across the country.
I bike Tempe all the time...not smart to have bikers going along store fronts on the sidewalk with people entering and exiting those businesses. IN NYC, the bikes are on the street like cars.

[wissundevil06]

Well then bike maybe people should start biking in streets. I think the bike lane can also be very dangerous: people make right turns in their car. It's obvious that Mill will have to do something as one lane just won't cut it as Tempe continues to grow and develop.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Thats interesting... conventional planning wisdom is that they are *better* for pedestrians, but not knowing the area well it's hard for me to say. Any idea what peak hour traffic counts look like here?

Yeah, I would say roundabouts are typically better for pedestrians than standard intersections because they (at least the way the modern ones are designed) force traffic to slow down as they approach the circle. They are not as easy for bikes to navigate, however.

To (kind of) answer your question, according to the latest MAG estimates, there are about 10-15 thousand cars per weekday on each leg of that intersection, which is much lower than some of the busier intersections nearby. I don't know about the peak hour counts. PHX31 might know.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by wissundevil06

Well then bike maybe people should start biking in streets. I think the bike lane can also be very dangerous: people make right turns in their car. It's obvious that Mill will have to do something as one lane just won't cut it as Tempe continues to grow and develop.

Adding lanes on Mill would detract from the pedestrian-friendly atmosphere of the street - one of the only such places in the Phx area. If traffic backs up there, people will avoid using it as a thru-route (they proabably already do, since there is no access to 202). It won't be a major bottleneck to regional traffic.

[sundevilgrad]

Wow. Did you guys just move here to the Valley/Tempe? Mill Ave. was 2 lanes (in both directions) for a long time until just a few years ago. It sucked. The one-lane street is much better IMO. It encourages more pedestrians and keeps the traffic flow/speed low.

[tempedude]

Originally Posted by wissundevil06

Well then bike maybe people should start biking in streets. I think the bike lane can also be very dangerous: people make right turns in their car. It's obvious that Mill will have to do something as one lane just won't cut it as Tempe continues to grow and develop.

Um...bike lanes are part of the street....drivers and bikers need to share the street...and obey all traffic laws alike.

edit: someone driving a car has no more priority on the street than someone riding a bike.

[vertex]

Oh crap, are we really arguing about bike lanes?

[tempedude]

Originally Posted by vertex

Oh crap, are we really arguing about bike lanes?

yep

[bwonger06]

If you hate Mill Ave when there is traffic, use Ash. Theres usually no traffic on ash even during peak hours.

[andrewkfromaz]

Originally Posted by ForAteOh

Adding lanes on Mill would detract from the pedestrian-friendly atmosphere of the street - one of the only such places in the Phx area. If traffic backs up there, people will avoid using it as a thru-route (they proabably already do, since there is no access to 202). It won't be a major bottleneck to regional traffic.

Thank you, ForAteOh. One thing they taught us in econ class is that if you build additional road capacity, more people will use the new road capacity until it too is congested. As it is, Mill Ave. tends to back up, which causes people to take other routes (Priest, Ash, or Rural). Given its short length and lack of freeway access, it's a non-issue. Sure, downtown Tempe is going to increase exponentially in density and traffic, but many of those drivers will not use Mill as a primary route around the city. Plus, planners are optimistic that Tempe's new residents will rely on alternate means of transportation (rail, bus, bike, feet) leading to a relatively minor impact on traffic.

I agree with the statements above that there may not be enough right-of-way for a roundabout. In addition, I think that a circle isn't the best gateway to a city. Granted, I've never seen the famous traffic circles that were given as examples, but I think some sort of bridge would create a better visual signal that drivers are now entering downtown Tempe.

[bunt_q]

We did a roundabout project for a city here in the denver area and it came out great (with tight row)... i'll have to see if i can dig up a picture. it probably won't happen (for every hundred of these things that gets proposed, maybe one gets built)... but don't discount it, they can be pretty neat (and you don't have to look as far as paris for examples).

[JimInCal]

Originally Posted by loftlovr

JiminCal- where did you find that?
I may get shot- but I kinda like it....
They even gave it a big sign atop the addition.
Still- it sure dominates Montis!
Worse than I could have ever imagined....
But the rest of the design seems nice-
I hope the design stays the same but set back behind Montis.

loftlovr, I found it, I found it.... Of all places, the Republic. Some of the comments below the story are of interest. Here's the link:

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/KatieNelson/8879

[desertdj]

That’s funny that we are actually arguing about the bike lanes. If there is one city in the state of Arizona that should have bike lanes everywhere, it’s Tempe. I for one use those on almost a daily basis, and I wouldn’t want to know what it would be like to dodge pedestrians on the sidewalks (especially on Mill Ave). It's one of the things I love about Tempe is you always see bikers and people walking a lot more than anywhere else. I think an area looks so dead when you don’t see anyone around walking or riding their bike, like about 95% of the rest of the Phoenix area.

The city of Tempe just wraped up a study about making Tempe’s public spaces even better, you can view the powerpoint here: http://www.tempe.gov/comdev/FlashSho...tation12SEP07/ and I would recommend checking it out but they even recommend reducing University to one lane to make it more pedestrian friendly among many other pretty good ideas.

I actually like this idea a lot, in Phoenix we have this car mentality built in or engraved in our head but we need to start focusing on anything other than the car. You can see what can happen when a city is built around cars, just look around. You get 8 lane freeways in each direction, with talks about doubling it. You get intersections (like ½ of the ones in Mesa and most in Chandler/Gilbert) that are the size of a city block to allow as much traffic as possible to flow through. And now we are starting to see the effects, our brown cloud is getting worse and worse. It takes twice as long to drive anywhere than it used to. People are spending more time away from their families. Of course I’m talking about a much larger picture than a ½ mile stretch of Mill Ave now but once again it all deals with the car mentality we have.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by ForAteOh

Yeah, I would say roundabouts are typically better for pedestrians than standard intersections because they (at least the way the modern ones are designed) force traffic to slow down as they approach the circle. They are not as easy for bikes to navigate, however.

To (kind of) answer your question, according to the latest MAG estimates, there are about 10-15 thousand cars per weekday on each leg of that intersection, which is much lower than some of the busier intersections nearby. I don't know about the peak hour counts. PHX31 might know.

At Mill and Rio Salado there are about 2,000 total vehicles entering the intersection during the AM peak hour, and about 3,200 vehicles entering the intersection during the PM peak hour.

In comparison, at Mill and University, there are about 2,200 total vehicles entering the intersection during the AM peak hour, and about 3,500 vehicles entering the intersection during the PM peak hour.

These might be a little low, since they were collected around the time major light rail and sewer line improvements were being constructed in the area.

[loftlovr]

Thanks JiminCal-

Cool pics of the early days of Casa Vieja too~