Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The "read between the lines" version of that reports could be interpreted to reveal a few interesting facts:
-Metro residents aren't bothering to come downtown anymore.
-job creation in the City lags behind the region and even CoV population growth.

Nice try, but no cigar.

Check out the City's Employment Space report: http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/corejobs/pdf/research/step2employmentspace.pdf

The number of people employed downtown has steadily climbed during the period covered in the Transportation Plan. Some employment sectors such as transportation and manufacturing have dropped and retail has been level or in a slight decline (a victim of suburban malls), but health/government has increased and professional and commercial services have really "gone to town".

I'm not sure why it's so difficult comprehend the idea that economic growth doesn't depend on cars. More and more people are choosing perfectly good alternatives year after year. Those are the facts - welcome to the 21st century.

[SpikePhanta]

Maybe its because there are lots of people living in downtown?
You can get most stuff downtown, most people I know live downtown, shop downtown, work downtown.
Only going out of the downtown core if they need something from a big box store or a once a week voyage outside to eat somewhere.
Plus many things outside downtown can still be reached by transit, like MEtrotown for larger shopping, North van for recreational stuff.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Maybe its because there are lots of people living in downtown?

I'm sure that's got at least something to do with it. But note that bike and transit trips entering downtown are still going up, so it's not like the mode shift is just due to people who live downtown.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Nice try, but no cigar.

Check out the City's Employment Space report: http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/corejobs/pdf/research/step2employmentspace.pdf

The number of people employed downtown has steadily climbed during the period covered in the Transportation Plan. Some employment sectors such as transportation and manufacturing have dropped and retail has been level or in a slight decline (a victim of suburban malls), but health/government has increased and professional and commercial services have really "gone to town".

I'm not sure why it's so difficult comprehend the idea that economic growth doesn't depend on cars. More and more people are choosing perfectly good alternatives year after year. Those are the facts - welcome to the 21st century.

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with that pdf, but it also shows job creation lagging behind the region as a whole and that one includes the Central Broadway area as well. You reinforced exactly what he was saying.

As far as cutting Pender down to 1 lane in 1 direction, I see no problems with this. The difference of having all of Dunsmuir functioning properly would more than compensate for the loss of a lane and delays caused by stopped busses on Pender. Hastings after all is only 2 lanes westbound near that area as well with no bus pullouts. Compared to Dunsmuir and Hastings, Pender doesn't really feed into anything. It dead ends in Strathcona and in Coal Harbour. Effectively it is just a local road.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with that pdf, but it also shows job creation lagging behind the region as a whole and that one includes the Central Broadway area as well.

Well, considering that the region as a whole has almost 4X the population as Vancouver proper, it's only natural that it will have more jobs. Do you think all the jobs SHOULD be in Vancouver? That goes squarely against the Livable Region plan which is trying to create regional employment centers so the people can live closer to their jobs. But on a per-resident basis Vancouver still has a disproportionate share of jobs.

Nonetheless, I read WhatNext's post as suggesting the reason car trips into downtown are decreasing is because there are fewer jobs downtown and/or fewer people coming downtown - but that is absolutely not the case. What the Employment Space report shows is that there are MORE jobs downtown. The Transportation Plan shows that MORE people are coming downtown, and LESS of them are driving. More people / less cars - road space is being reallocated accordingly. That's just the way it is, like it or not.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Nice try, but no cigar.

Check out the City's Employment Space report: http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/corejobs/pdf/research/step2employmentspace.pdf

The number of people employed downtown has steadily climbed during the period covered in the Transportation Plan. Some employment sectors such as transportation and manufacturing have dropped and retail has been level or in a slight decline (a victim of suburban malls), but health/government has increased and professional and commercial services have really "gone to town".

I'm not sure why it's so difficult comprehend the idea that economic growth doesn't depend on cars. More and more people are choosing perfectly good alternatives year after year. Those are the facts - welcome to the 21st century.

How "clever" that they include food and accommodation workers under professional and commercial services. Certainly sounds better, doesn't it?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well, considering that the region as a whole has almost 4X the population as Vancouver proper, it's only natural that it will have more jobs. Do you think all the jobs SHOULD be in Vancouver? That goes squarely against the Livable Region plan which is trying to create regional employment centers so the people can live closer to their jobs. But on a per-resident basis Vancouver still has a disproportionate share of jobs.

The Vancouver charts were showed growth to be slowing substantially. Personally I think that CoV's growth ambitions are pretty small considering how much branding we've put trying to sell density.

The reality is downtown is a pain in the ass when it comes to accessability and it isn't centrally located within the region. It needs a damn good reason to remain as culturally prominent in this city as it is. While I do like the idea of having many major nodes to a city, I believe downtown should try to remain heads and shoulders above the rest of the crowd in terms of prominence. In 40 years are we going to see Metrotown or Surrey Central vying for prominence against the Burrard Peninsula? Those stats you linked to show a potential for this to happen.

[WBC]

1) That PDF shows only data to about 2001-2002. The numbers over the last decade are just projections. It even includes the fantasy about the high tech park in the False Creek flats.
2) There has been no new large commercial buildings added to downtown aside from Bental 5 in the last 10 years. There has been a number of conversions of commercial space to residential space. A trend that has been finally stopped a few years ago by the city. So there cannot be a growth in well paying, corporate jobs if you do not have more AAA commercial space being added to the downtown core.
3) The PDF document includes Broadway area into downtown district with all the hospital and healthcare related jobs that go along with it
4) The only job growth that has happened in terms of downtown jobs is in hospitality industry (hotels). And counting those jobs under professional and commercial services is just sad.

So as many people have pointed out, having growth in hotel, 7-11 and restaurant jobs is consistent with the resort feel that city has been developing over the last decade.

The reason why you have less cars or stagnant number of cars entering downtown is that people who work in a brand new shiny 7-11 downtown or make 30k in a "luxury" hotel cannot afford to drive and park downtown thus they use transit. And also transit has improved so its easier to get downtown without a car.

[whatnext]

Very well said.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WBC

And also transit has improved so its easier to get downtown without a car.

Exactly. And now that there's a bike lane there's yet another viable alternative.

[racc]

Originally Posted by WBC

So as many people have pointed out, having growth in hotel, 7-11 and restaurant jobs is consistent with the resort feel that city has been developing over the last decade.

The reason why you have less cars or stagnant number of cars entering downtown is that people who work in a brand new shiny 7-11 downtown or make 30k in a "luxury" hotel cannot afford to drive and park downtown thus they use transit. And also transit has improved so its easier to get downtown without a car.

Actually, the main reason is that thousands more people are living downtown or near downtown and walking to work. You can't afford a downtown condo working at 7-11.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by WBC

1) That PDF shows only data to about 2001-2002. The numbers over the last decade are just projections. It even includes the fantasy about the high tech park in the False Creek flats.
2) There has been no new large commercial buildings added to downtown aside from Bental 5 in the last 10 years. There has been a number of conversions of commercial space to residential space. A trend that has been finally stopped a few years ago by the city. So there cannot be a growth in well paying, corporate jobs if you do not have more AAA commercial space being added to the downtown core.
3) The PDF document includes Broadway area into downtown district with all the hospital and healthcare related jobs that go along with it
4) The only job growth that has happened in terms of downtown jobs is in hospitality industry (hotels). And counting those jobs under professional and commercial services is just sad.

So as many people have pointed out, having growth in hotel, 7-11 and restaurant jobs is consistent with the resort feel that city has been developing over the last decade.

The reason why you have less cars or stagnant number of cars entering downtown is that people who work in a brand new shiny 7-11 downtown or make 30k in a "luxury" hotel cannot afford to drive and park downtown thus they use transit. And also transit has improved so its easier to get downtown without a car.

Very well said indeed. The city is legendary for their "studies" that are as about on the level as the ones tobacco companies used to put out whereby they used to find that as it turns out afterall, smoking isn't all that bad for you afterall.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WBC

1) That PDF shows only data to about 2001-2002.

Here are job stats that go up to 2006: http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/stats/metrocore/index.htm

Downtown jobs area STILL increased during that time. Sorry, but you still can't blame the decrease in drivers into the downtown core during that interval by claiming there are less jobs there:

We won't have any more recent stats until the 2011 census- but I gotta tell you that I think you're living in a bit of a fantasy world if you think there will be fewer jobs downtown in 2011 than there were in 2006.

It's not less cars because there are fewer jobs, it's because people are switching to other modes. Get used to it.

[jlousa]

Is the amount of new jobs downtown > the number of new residents downtown over the last 10yrs? I would venture probably not.
I have no doubt that transit usage has increased over that time period as has the precentage of people walking to work from within the core. But I think it's naive to assume that any given increasing trend will continue indefinitely into the future. If that were the case then the amount of cars registered in the region will continue to grow forever.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Here are job stats that go up to 2006: http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/stats/metrocore/index.htm

Downtown jobs area STILL increased during that time. Sorry, but you still can't blame the decrease in drivers into the downtown core during that interval by claiming there are less jobs there:

We won't have any more recent stats until the 2011 census- but I gotta tell you that I think you're living in a bit of a fantasy world if you think there will be fewer jobs downtown in 2011 than there were in 2006.

It's not less cars because there are fewer jobs, it's because people are switching to other modes. Get used to it.

I am not arguing that jobs are not increasing in CBD. I am arguing that low paying jobs are increasing and high paying jobs are stagnant. The quality of jobs matters significantly unless you plan Las Vegas future for Vancouver. And the biggest planned commercial development in Downtown Vancouver is guess what - a giant casino. Again with keeping up with the resort city feel.

You should also take into account that a number of people telecommute. In my company (situated downtown) the telecommuting has increased drastically over the last 5 years to the point that most people work at least one day a week from home. I also have a number of friends that work for companies that are not even physically here - they are in the States or do international business, but simply contract work to people all over the world. In fact I would say that this has become even more prominent after the Olympics as people realized that they could avoid the entire hassle of commuting and just work from home.

And secondly I have nothing to get used to. I have been Sky Training to work for the last 12 years. At the same time I have been working in this city for a long time and have a number of local clients and can tell you that downtown Vancouver is not where large businesses are heading. Suburbs, outer suburbs are places were people are moving and we had even clients completely move their HQ and IT to Duncan for crying out loud. We have basically only a single large client left downtown (Goldcorp). Everybody else is in Burnaby, Richmond and increasingly Surrey. In the 80s and early 90s majority of our clients were downtown (forest companies, Hydro, etc). So the only reason we stay downtown is essentially inertia.

[jlousa]

Remember to keep things civil. Enjoy.

[red-paladin]

At least some office jobs are being created. My office building has a few floors that are empty for the company's future expansion. They've just finished furnishing one of them and are hiring (or have already hired) over a hundred more people to work there.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WBC

...downtown Vancouver is not where large businesses are heading. Suburbs, outer suburbs are places were people are moving...

That's not necessarily a bad thing - the Livable Region plan is trying to establish more employment in regional centers. It's pretty obvious that Vancouver proper can't supply all of the jobs for the entire Metro region as its population grows. If more people live and work in Surrey (for example) that can be just as sustainable and eco-friendly as people who live and work in Vancouver.

We just need to avoid those sprawling office parks that are impossible to serve effectively by transit.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That's not necessarily a bad thing - the Livable Region plan is trying to establish more employment in regional centers. It's pretty obvious that Vancouver proper can't supply all of the jobs for the entire Metro region as its population grows. If more people live and work in Surrey (for example) that can be just as sustainable and eco-friendly as people who live and work in Vancouver.

We just need to avoid those sprawling office parks that are impossible to serve effectively by transit.

That's what's happening though. Look in Burnaby, Richmond, Coquitlam, PoCo, Surrey, Langley, where these office jobs are moving. They are sprawling office parks, away from transit. Just take a drive in Burnaby down North Fraser Way, it's mind blowing. They just finished a set of office buildings on 80 ave at 128 st in Surrey. Scott Road around 103a Ave is all pre loaded to become flat, sprawling office park with the next boom cycle.

We've built billions in mass transit and many of these new office parks aren't anywhere near it. To go from my place in Surrey to North Fraser way (the part served by Transit) takes over an hour on transit (equal to going all the way downtown), but 20 minutes to drive (40 in super heavy traffic), and there's plenty of parking.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

That's what's happening though. Look in Burnaby, Richmond, Coquitlam, PoCo, Surrey, Langley, where these office jobs are moving. They are sprawling office parks, away from transit. Just take a drive in Burnaby down North Fraser Way, it's mind blowing. They just finished a set of office buildings on 80 ave at 128 st in Surrey. Scott Road around 103a Ave is all pre loaded to become flat, sprawling office park with the next boom cycle.

We've built billions in mass transit and many of these new office parks aren't anywhere near it. To go from my place in Surrey to North Fraser way (the part served by Transit) takes over an hour on transit (equal to going all the way downtown), but 20 minutes to drive (40 in super heavy traffic), and there's plenty of parking.

In that regard the problem isn't so much the liveable regional plan. But that each city isn't building the proper transit oriented development.