PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Agreed. Speaking as someone who has never given a shit about the aesthetics of power lines, it's still just really perplexing from a practical standpoint that we haven't slowly been migrating them underground when there are opportunities like those you describe or when a road is getting torn up anyway to replace a gas line or a water line. It's just safer and more reliable.

The best time to start a program like this would have 30 years ago. But the second best time is now.

think about the explanation that would be passed on to PECO customers when they faced inflated bills for 10 or 20 years to cover such a project. Spend billions to rip up sidewalks, streets, etc. and increase monthly bills to remove what some feel is a "major" aesthetic issue. Dont think that would go over well, especially when power outages are rare in most of philly.

When a road is repaved they are on milling and overlaying the top few inches of road surface, there is no excavation involved. Anyone who has seen a sewer main or lateral replacement on a city block knows how long that takes and how disruptive that is for the block. That would be analagous to the effort to install underground power feeds within an existing built environment.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Seriously.

I live in the center of Brooklyn in an area that's been relatively run down and only has received renewed interest in the past 3-4 years (Crown Heights).

There's not a utility line in site.

At a minimum, Philadelphia should require that when a project is of a certain scale (i.e. a full city block) burying the lines that run along the project's perimeter should be required.

In places like Northern Liberties and South Kensington, this would have almost by default buried many of the lines at some point.

Another missed opportunity. I would never assume Kenney could ever think of something like this, considering he can't even pick up the trash. But I digress.

PECO is a regional utility controlled by the PUC, the City nor any other local government has any jurisdiction over their investment decisions. Anything they propose that will lead to increased expenses for customers has to be reviewed and approved. Kenney's opinion (or lack thereof) on the appearance of utility wires is a nonfactor. If PECO were going to champion buried lines they surely wouldn't start in the City where costs would be higher, outages are less common and existing UG space was more limited.

[Knight Hospitaller]

All I know is that Havertown is covered in overhead electrical lines that could've been buried when PECO replaced all of its gas lines all over town this year. They had to drill holes around and through my house and relocate a meter as it was. There's just no will to be more than pennywise and pound foolish.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by cardeza

think about the explanation that would be passed on to PECO customers when they faced inflated bills for 10 or 20 years to cover such a project. Spend billions to rip up sidewalks, streets, etc. and increase monthly bills to remove what some feel is a "major" aesthetic issue. Dont think that would go over well, especially when power outages are rare in most of philly.

When a road is repaved they are on milling and overlaying the top few inches of road surface, there is no excavation involved. Anyone who has seen a sewer main or lateral replacement on a city block knows how long that takes and how disruptive that is for the block. That would be analagous to the effort to install underground power feeds within an existing built environment.

Originally Posted by cardeza

PECO is a regional utility controlled by the PUC, the City nor any other local government has any jurisdiction over their investment decisions. Anything they propose that will lead to increased expenses for customers has to be reviewed and approved. Kenney's opinion (or lack thereof) on the appearance of utility wires is a nonfactor. If PECO were going to champion buried lines they surely wouldn't start in the City where costs would be higher, outages are less common and existing UG space was more limited.

Stop it bro, a coordinated effort to work with the Streets Dept, PECO & developers would get the lines underground with ease.

NYC lines didn't just grow underline they were placed there.

Per usual we have people who don't think or see past their nose, so they didn't throw in a clause requiring developers to move utility lines underground then redo the sidewalk and street, it could have all been done and we would see less lines on streets if this was started 10 years ago.

Cost are high when you just go out and straight have to do it all on your own (PECO)

But working together, Peco, Developers and cities would have made it effortless.

Don't excuse their foolishness its possible, they just don't care.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

think about the explanation that would be passed on to PECO customers when they faced inflated bills for 10 or 20 years to cover such a project. Spend billions to rip up sidewalks, streets, etc. and increase monthly bills to remove what some feel is a "major" aesthetic issue. Dont think that would go over well, especially when power outages are rare in most of philly.

When a road is repaved they are on milling and overlaying the top few inches of road surface, there is no excavation involved. Anyone who has seen a sewer main or lateral replacement on a city block knows how long that takes and how disruptive that is for the block. That would be analagous to the effort to install underground power feeds within an existing built environment.

Who said anything about street repaving? I said when they're replacing a sewer main or a gas line, utilities that are sunk just as deep as power lines. And what are you talking about not enough room? How much room could you possibly need to bury a powerline?

And regarding cost, if it's being done next to a large construction project, the whole point is that the developer is paying, wouldn't increase bills a dime. And when the streets are already torn up for other utility work, the whole point of doing it then is because it wouldn't cost a lot. And it's not like there's hundreds of streets torn up every year, this would be a very piecemeal approach, i highly doubt anyone would notice a difference in their bill.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This is a bit of a stretch - most of these cities are all buried in a HUGE section in and around their core

That's not true at all, certainly not in East Asia. Side streets in Japan have surface power lines as a rule, not as an exception, even in the core. This is something I know personally.

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Stop it bro, a coordinated effort to work with the Streets Dept, PECO & developers would get the lines underground with ease.

NYC lines didn't just grow underline they were placed there.

Per usual we have people who don't think or see past their nose, so they didn't throw in a clause requiring developers to move utility lines underground then redo the sidewalk and street, it could have all been done and we would see less lines on streets if this was started 10 years ago.

Cost are high when you just go out and straight have to do it all on your own (PECO)

But working together, Peco, Developers and cities would have made it effortless.

Don't excuse their foolishness its possible, they just don't care.

This is the correct take. If surface power lines mar your urban aesthetics, (1) don't live in East Asia, and (2) get all the utility companies to coordinate when you need to repave the street for something. This is, incidentally, also a place where having all the utilities be under public control is advantageous, assuming City Hall cares about such coordination (after all, this was the Nutter administration's approach about a decade ago).

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Stop it bro, a coordinated effort to work with the Streets Dept, PECO & developers would get the lines underground with ease.

NYC lines didn't just grow underline they were placed there.

Per usual we have people who don't think or see past their nose, so they didn't throw in a clause requiring developers to move utility lines underground then redo the sidewalk and street, it could have all been done and we would see less lines on streets if this was started 10 years ago.

Cost are high when you just go out and straight have to do it all on your own (PECO)

But working together, Peco, Developers and cities would have made it effortless.

Don't excuse their foolishness its possible, they just don't care.

Wow. The facts presented are not my opinions, they are fact. The city does not control the power lines, I mistakenly thought this was widely known. Also the state PUC approves investments and cost increases that affect customers. PECO has absolutely NOTHING to gain by spending billions on burying power lines. Burying a new utility line in congested space involves tons of coordination, temporary support of existing utilities and tons of disruption. I was just involved with a project that requires relocation of an existing gas line on Broad street and the logistics are complicated and the process is glacial because of the congested real estate under the sidewalk and the need to preserve existing gas service to properties in the construction zone.

The city spends $0 on maintaining or installing PECO service, the idea that they would get involved in cost sharing when PECO is run by a for profit private enterprise is absurd.

[ScreamShatter]

^ 100% agreed about the emphasis on cross-collaboration between the city departments, programs, and initiatives. This is in the art of the possible.

And the impacts are bigger than visual. This would allow for taller trees that shade sidewalks, shade houses (reducing AC costs), reducing pollution, etc. so definite benefits to public health, finance, and quality of life.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Wow. The facts presented are not my opinions, they are fact. The city does not control the power lines, I mistakenly thought this was widely known. Also the state PUC approves investments and cost increases that affect customers. PECO has absolutely NOTHING to gain by spending billions on burying power lines. Burying a new utility line in congested space involves tons of coordination, temporary support of existing utilities and tons of disruption. I was just involved with a project that requires relocation of an existing gas line on Broad street and the logistics are complicated and the process is glacial because of the congested real estate under the sidewalk and the need to preserve existing gas service to properties in the construction zone.

The city spends $0 on maintaining or installing PECO service, the idea that they would get involved in cost sharing when PECO is run by a for profit private enterprise is absurd.

No one is suggesting PECO spend billions of dollars to sink lines. What are you going on about? Do you honestly not understand what people are proposing? Are you an overhead powerline?

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

That's not true at all, certainly not in East Asia. Side streets in Japan have surface power lines as a rule, not as an exception, even in the core. This is something I know personally.


This is the correct take. If surface power lines mar your urban aesthetics, (1) don't live in East Asia, and (2) get all the utility companies to coordinate when you need to repave the street for something. This is, incidentally, also a place where having all the utilities be under public control is advantageous, assuming City Hall cares about such coordination (after all, this was the Nutter administration's approach about a decade ago).

You may want to Google street resurfacing. As noted a repaving involves the removal and replacement of 4" or so of pavement. It does NOT involve excavation and thus has no relationship with utility placement or relocation. You don't actually break through the road surface at all when you repave. Repaving can be done in days. A replacement of an active utility line is a multi-month process that involves closing down all or part of a city block.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by allovertown

No one is suggesting PECO spend billions of dollars to sink lines. What are you going on about? Do you honestly not understand what people are proposing? Are you an overhead powerline?

PECO owns and maintains the power lines. Solely. Who are you proposing to spend money on burying existing lines? No other entity has financial responsibility for existing power infrastructure and is laughable to think that the City or anyone else would pony up money to bury perfectly operational lines at enormous cost. People are saying "just bury the power lines when you're doing other major utility projects"- do you realize how infrequently water or gas lines are replaced? Maybe once every 70-80 years and doing so is a very disruptive process.

Power for commercial and large residential buildings as well as institutions is already underground. You won't see power lines on the campus of Temple or Penn. the overhead lines are prevalent in residential areas with single family or small multi family units.

[Knight Hospitaller]

This is a big powerline kerfuffle. Can’t we all agree that powerlines should be installed below the street IF/WHEN the opportunity arises, like replacement of other utilities or new construction? It needn’t be a major public works project all at one time. PECO missed a great opportunity in Havertown as it replaced pretty much every gas line on every street but left the electrical poles up. All of the disruption, digging, and repaving was already scheduled. Houses were already having old meters removed and updated ones installed for gas.

[iheartphilly]

^
Gas line in the ground may lead to a gas leak...

Electrical line in the ground may lead to a spark...

The combination will be disastrous...

[Knight Hospitaller]

^ Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! It’s a good thing that’s never been done anywhere…

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

^ Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! It’s a good thing that’s never been done anywhere…

Building UG from the start is much different than replacing. Most suburban subdivisions bury everything which makes sense. For this that don't know, most of the utilities in Philly were installed in late 1800s through early 1900s. As technology has increased the amount of stuff buried in the ground or attached to poles has increased.When other companies piggyback off of existing poles PECO gets money from that. Some of their infrastructure supports cable wiring etc so all of that would have to be moved if your aim is to rid the city of overheard wires and utility poles. When something goes wrong or needs to be upgraded on an UG feed getting access is much more expensive and complicated. Manholes give some access but if you need to remove a cable, add a cable or install a duct bank it gets expensive. Making similar repairs/upgrades when the wires are exposed is much easier for PECO. Placing significant voltage underground when it wasn't planned from the beginning sets off a domino effect on the existing utilities in terms of clearances, complexity of repairs (think about water main breaks), etc. Philly already has a ton of crap in the street and this is why often months after a street is repaved you will see patches of excavation repairs. Fixing things that are buried is never fast or cheap.

someone mention NY having more buried lines- that makes sense when you consider it has a much higher proportion of large multifamily buildings that require high voltage feeds from the utility provider. You cannot power those buildings with the types of aerial feeds coming to a townhouse and for safety reasons large buildings usually get their power UG. You also need more voltage to run the systems in large buildings such as elevators, fire pumps, etc.

[ScreamShatter]

The city needs to do better on the basics. It has the resources to:

1. Pave the damn streets
2. Fix the damn sidewalks
3. Bury the damn powerlines
4. Design a better trash pickup program
5. Sweep the damn streets AND sidewalks

I’m tired of excuses. Do better basics, Philly.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

PECO owns and maintains the power lines. Solely. Who are you proposing to spend money on burying existing lines? No other entity has financial responsibility for existing power infrastructure and is laughable to think that the City or anyone else would pony up money to bury perfectly operational lines at enormous cost. People are saying "just bury the power lines when you're doing other major utility projects"- do you realize how infrequently water or gas lines are replaced? Maybe once every 70-80 years and doing so is a very disruptive process.

Power for commercial and large residential buildings as well as institutions is already underground. You won't see power lines on the campus of Temple or Penn. the overhead lines are prevalent in residential areas with single family or small multi family units.

I think myself and others have been pretty clear about what we're proposing should be done. Really struggling to understand what you don't get.

You're trying to have it both ways with coordinating with other utility projects that involve digging up the street. You think it will both cost billions and at the same time these projects only occur every 80 years so the project will move at glacial pace. Yea we get they don't do these projects frequently, the point is when they're done, they should bury the power line too. It won't cost a ton of money because by your own admission these projects don't happen frequently. And yes, it may take 80 years to bury all the power lines, but a plan that takes 80 years to complete is better than no plan at all.

And stop bringing up street resurfacing, you're literally the only person talking about burying lines every time there is a street resurfacing. We've all seen a street resurfaced before, no one thinks you can bury a power line under a few inches of asphalt.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I think myself and others have been pretty clear about what we're proposing should be done. Really struggling to understand what you don't get.

You're trying to have it both ways with coordinating with other utility projects that involve digging up the street. You think it will both cost billions and at the same time these projects only occur every 80 years so the project will move at glacial pace. Yea we get they don't do these projects frequently, the point is when they're done, they should bury the power line too. It won't cost a ton of money because by your own admission these projects don't happen frequently. And yes, it may take 80 years to bury all the power lines, but a plan that takes 80 years to complete is better than no plan at all.

And stop bringing up street resurfacing, you're literally the only person talking about burying lines every time there is a street resurfacing. We've all seen a street resurfaced before, no one thinks you can bury a power line under a few inches of asphalt.

Exactly, I understand what @Card is trying to say, but thats not what we're talking about. What we have been saying is that a coordinated effort would have gotten this done with ease.

Also Phillies buildings are big enough for the wires to automatically be put underground, in-fact the fact that we have wires/poles above ground in the city especially around all the new construction is crazy. Those poles take up a good amount of sidewalk space and are dangerous for some cars/ buses on certain streets.

The people in charge aren't thinking about the little details, and if the sidewalks/streets already have crowded infrastructure it needs to be cleaned up/organized anyway, or in the future we will have more problems.

I know plenty of people are glad they paid $500,000 for a view of poles with 1000 wires on it.

Pay for it now or regret it later.

[KDD]

On the topic the Sixers, the sports complex more specifically, its not really that important but for posterity, I have to say, I'd put money on the entire complex being renamed after Ed Rendell when his time comes. Heck, lets do it while he is still with us.

[eixample]

My position on the power line debates is that it really isn't such a big deal for most city residents and we have much more pressing infrastructure concerns. Of course it isn't ideal to have all that clutter, but I agree it would be a ton of work to retrofit older neighborhoods. (As mentioned above, it wouldn't just be running the new lines under the streets but they'd also have to get them under the sidewalks and into houses below grade.).

I always find the Verizon/Comcast lines to be more annoying because they are lower/more visible from the street and they are sloppier with their work. However, at some point, maybe within 10-20 years (when 6g technology comes along, say), data speeds will be fast enough that we won't need individual home connections for our data service and we'll just have a box attached to a telephone poll for every block. At that point a whole lot of lines will go away and burying all our utilities will make less sense.