Ontario Highways

[sonysnob]

Open spandrel concrete arch bridges (such as the one pictured) are obsolete bridge technology, so they aren't being built anywhere (unless for a specific decorative purpose), not just in Ontario.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

If any 407 loop ramps need converting, it's the 407 / 404 ramps, which actually handles fairly significant volumes.

I traveled 407 WB to 404 SB last month and it took seemingly forever to make this connection even without any traffic. Checking on google maps, it's over 2 mins to take this ramp from mainline to mainline.

Given that the 407 has been extended east, and 404 north, I'd say there's more merit now to replace the 404/407 loop ramps with flyovers one day. I would assume more traffic is using them now that both highways are longer than before.

It's also kinda weird having this 10-12 lane behemoth of a freeway and yet a major connection is just a 1 lane loop. Maybe once the 407 runs out of room for further widening they may tackle these connections to make the highway flow better? I mean it's not like they can't afford it lol. $4.20 for a camera charge now... up from 3 bucks which is what I thought it would be. Such a random number... 420 dude

[sonysnob]

I think the ramp going the other direction, (from the eastbound 407 to the northbound 404) is almost worse. If you get behind a truck or something, the truck has to slow right down to navigate the loop ramp, but then can't really regain any speed on the upgrade for the braided ramp over the Hwy 7 off-ramp before joining the 404.

It's too bad that neither the interchanges between the 404 and the 410 were constructed as full stacks. It'd be hard to replace the loops with proper flyovers and still have the exits make sense.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I suspect that pre-fabricated bridges are just cheaper to construct.

This is the answer, and is true across Canada instead of just Ontario. Prefab components are the way to go for keeping costs down. It makes more sense to prioritize functionality and cost when so much needs to be built as it is. There is also something to be said about trying to minimize the amount of support structures to avoid building in the waterways as much as possible.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I think the ramp going the other direction, (from the eastbound 407 to the northbound 404) is almost worse. If you get behind a truck or something, the truck has to slow right down to navigate the loop ramp, but then can't really regain any speed on the upgrade for the braided ramp over the Hwy 7 off-ramp before joining the 404.

It's too bad that neither the interchanges between the 404 and the 410 were constructed as full stacks. It'd be hard to replace the loops with proper flyovers and still have the exits make sense.

For some reason I thought that MTO had designed all the 407 interchanges to be able to be upgraded to full stacks, but only built the 400 interchange as one initially to save some money?

I admit I don't have as much experience with the 410 ramps, looking at it I assume the SB 410 loop is fairly high volume. Makes me wonder if 407ETR would ever bother paying to upgrade them.. they seem exceedingly cheap in many ways when it comes to new infrastructure, such as them dragging their feet on building out the Donald Cousens and 9th Line interchanges. Full flyover ramps would be quite expensive, I imagine they would avoid the expense as long as possible.

[sonysnob]

I've driven the ramp from the southbound 410 to the eastbound 407 a bunch of times. The biggest drawback is that traffic entering from the 410 ramp merges onto the 407 at fairly slow speeds. The loop ramp is on an upgradient so any heavy vehicle can't really maintain speed while using the ramp. I doubt the ramp from the 410 northbound to the westbound 407 is really all that busy, given the alignment of the other highways in the area.

Old mapart maps used to show at least the 407 and 404 meeting a stack interchange when the highway was proposed, and there is a contributor on Ontroads that seems to indicate that was true for the 410 as well (though I don't actually recall seeing that). I've never actually seen any early official proposals for stack interchanges at any other locations, but it's possible, the design of the 407 was refined a bunch of times before it was actually constructed.

[sonysnob]

Image from the 1995 edition of the Toronto & Area atlas:

[sonysnob]

Aerial photo of the QEW/Gardiner heading towards Downtown Toronto from the 427 interchange:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/QEW_images/QEW_ar_DJI_0629_Oct22_24x16.jpg

[sonysnob]

Looking westerly along the 417 at the 416:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_DJI_0800_Dec22_24x16.jpg

[sonysnob]

Drone photo of the interchange between the 407 and the 412 in Whitby:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407_ar_DJI_0261_Oct22_24x16.jpg

[MolsonExport]

bereft of traffic. funny how extraordinarily high tolls do that

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

bereft of traffic. funny how extraordinarily high tolls do that

It's not that empty, especially the 412 now that it's free. I drive on that part 5-6 times a year and it's usually relatively busy. Obviously no 401, but busier than the photo.

Also, the 407 East is about half the price of the ETR. Far more affordable.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

It's not that empty, especially the 412 now that it's free. I drive on that part 5-6 times a year and it's usually relatively busy. Obviously no 401, but busier than the photo.

Also, the 407 East is about half the price of the ETR. Far more affordable.

This piqued my curiosity. The 407 ETR hasn't posted a toll increase for 2023 on its website. Before the pandemic, toll increases were always posted between Christmas and New Years (or thereabouts), and it seems this year, again, there isn't going to be a toll increase on the ETR. The toll rates haven't increased since 2019. They were proposed to be increased during the summer months only in 2020 but were never implemented due to the pandemic.

The ETR is an expensive road, so it's not like this is cause for much excitement, but at least its not another kick to the teeth.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

This piqued my curiosity. The 407 ETR hasn't posted a toll increase for 2023 on its website. Before the pandemic, toll increases were always posted between Christmas and New Years (or thereabouts), and it seems this year, again, there isn't going to be a toll increase on the ETR. The toll rates haven't increased since 2019. They were proposed to be increased during the summer months only in 2020 but were never implemented due to the pandemic.

The ETR is an expensive road, so it's not like this is cause for much excitement, but at least its not another kick to the teeth.

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but I think they need to have an increase in traffic to be able to increase the toll. My thinking is traffic isn't back up so they cannot raise the toll.

[Innsertnamehere]

Indeed - my understanding is that 407ETR is required to hit minimum traffic targets before they can increase rates, and they aren't hitting them still which is why rates are flat.

I'm definitely not complaining, they were increasing at a startlingly quick rate prior to the pandemic. It's been nice to see inflation catch up to them a bit again.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Indeed - my understanding is that 407ETR is required to hit minimum traffic targets before they can increase rates, and they aren't hitting them still which is why rates are flat.

I'm definitely not complaining, they were increasing at a startlingly quick rate prior to the pandemic. It's been nice to see inflation catch up to them a bit again.

Would they be required to lower the toll if the traffic stays low?

[MolsonExport]

It is a neat trick to be profiting from a highway paid for by the government.

Despite being included in the 400-series network, the Highway 407 ETR section is not considered part of the provincial highway network due to it now being privately operated.[11] The segment is operated privately under a 99-year lease agreement with the provincial government, which was sold in 1999 for about C$3.1 billion to a consortium of Canadian and Spanish investors operating under the name 407 International Inc.[12] The privatization of the Highway 407 ETR section has been the source of significant criticism,[13] especially regarding the increases in tolls, plate denial, and false charges.

The privatization of the road, the toll rate increases, and the 99-year lease period have been widely criticized.

-The original plan was for the tolls to end after the construction cost was paid off, probably after about 35 years; there is no indication that the private owners will eliminate the tolls.[95]
- Although Premier Mike Harris promised that tolls would not rise by more than 30 percent, they have risen by over 200 percent by 2015, from about 10 cents to over 30 cents per kilometre.[13]
-There have been criticisms and lawsuits arising from plate denial issues.
-Another criticism is that taxpayers did not receive a fair price for their highway: In 2002, just three years after the original sale for C$3.1 billion, Macquarie Infrastructure Group, an Australian investment firm, estimated that the highway was worth four times the original price.[96] By 2019, the estimated value had risen to C$30 billion.[78][69]

Both the length of the lease, and the fact that the road is controlled by private corporations, mean that decisions about the road and the tolls are less accountable to the public. The Harris government failed to put any restrictions on toll increases (as long as the road attracted a certain volume of cars). As a result, commuters in the densely-populated Toronto area will have no protection against ever-rising tolls on this key highway during the entire 99-year span of the lease.

Harris and his common nonsense revolution. no better than Rae Days.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It is a neat trick to be profiting from a highway paid for by the government.

It is among the long list of reasons why I will never vote PC/Conservative ever.

[Dengler Avenue]

Meanwhile, MTO officers have been conducting speed traps on the 407 between Hamilton and Peel Region.
It’s been a year since the trend began, but I wonder what got them targeting passenger vehicles too. They’re usually only after commercial vehicles.
Like here: https://twitter.com/handell_cve/status/1611000044185853953?s=46&t=0yzVu8FtYrgET1MNQTjqUQ

Ps: They stopped people for doing 130+ kph too whereas O.P.P. wouldn’t even have batted an eye for anything < 140 kph on the 407.

[sonysnob]

That picture is kind of funny, the cruise control in the ford vehicle that the MTO officer has been driving was set to 125km/h.

The pot calling the kettle black.