Calgary Public Transit II

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

As an aside, the money that is currently being spent on the Rocky Ridge/Tuscany and Saddletowne extensions would have looked pretty good topping up Green Trip, or in general providing enough funds to make the SE LRT somewhat useful in its first phase (getting from Eau Claire to Douglasdale)

Ending at Douglasdale is nowhere NEAR somewhat useful. If they have to build a first phase that would be somewhat useful, 4 St SE to Mckenzie Towne would be much, much better than ending at Douglasdale. That is a line to nowhere. So much of the ridership for SELRT will come from the block of communities south of Douglasdale, they're even partly designed around LRT.'

To use your Canada line comparison, that would be like ending at Bridgeport station and going no further south.

[MichaelS]

never mind.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

Ending at Douglasdale is nowhere NEAR somewhat useful. If they have to build a first phase that would be somewhat useful, 4 St SE to Mckenzie Towne would be much, much better than ending at Douglasdale. That is a line to nowhere. So much of the ridership for SELRT will come from the block of communities south of Douglasdale, they're even partly designed around LRT.'

To use your Canada line comparison, that would be like ending at Bridgeport station and going no further south.

It is useful in that it lets every bus from the deep SE avoid the Deerfoot, Bow Bottom, Anderson pinch. Bridgeport on the Canada Line is in fact where most of their buses from the suburbs come in, which makes the analogy particularly apt.

When the proposals on the table is about building far less (east of Macleod Tr to just south of Glenmore I believe), I wouldn't complain about trying to build at least a somewhat functional line that actually went downtown to a logical suburban terminus. From Douglasdale, future expansions are relatively cheap and should be easy to carve off money to get it down to the south hospital within a decade or 15 years.

Building the truncated LRT line without the downtown section and a terminus that is not particularly useful is just building LRT to say we are building it, which is exactly what people are advocating against on the north central LRT up Nose Creek. Just because it was a campaign promise, I don't know why people think that meant shovels in the ground ASAP - and it shouldn't be a reason to.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

The station at 4 st SE, beside the underpass, will be two blocks away from the start of the Stampede Trail retail development. So, SELRT will improve access to stampede considerably.

I would actually prefer for a line heading out to 17th Avenue SE to be the route that has a northside Stampede station located near 4th Street/10th/11th or 12th Avenues. (presuming the Victoria barns are finally relocated.)

ps - I want SE LRT and a Centre Street line to operate as one. Swinging SE LRT to the Stampede adds to Stampede access while leaving room on the northside for a 17th Avenue SE line.
SE LRT can also travel along 15 or 17th Avenue a wee bit before turning into downtown improving access in that area.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

As an aside, the money that is currently being spent on the Rocky Ridge/Tuscany and Saddletowne extensions would have looked pretty good topping up Green Trip, or in general providing enough funds to make the SE LRT somewhat useful in its first phase (getting from Eau Claire to Douglasdale)

(snip)

There is a huge hole in the SE LRT budget, that I believe is too big to fill by P3 or debt financing without seriously dragging us down in the future. That hole could get bigger with the election of a new government in the province, or the replacement of Stelmach.

How much of the listed $115 million for the NW extension is pure LRT work?

Since the actual track construction isn't slated for 2012-14, how much can we 'grab' back and redeploy by delaying track construction?

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

Ending at Douglasdale is nowhere NEAR somewhat useful.

Actually, it's very useful.

Downtown to Douglas Glen is the same as Downtown to Panorama.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Building the truncated LRT line without the downtown section and a terminus that is not particularly useful is just building LRT to say we are building it, which is exactly what people are advocating against on the north central LRT up Nose Creek. Just because it was a campaign promise, I don't know why people think that meant shovels in the ground ASAP - and it shouldn't be a reason to.

If they want a temporary (8-12 years) downtown terminal coming in via 10th Avenue, I would suggest the parking lot bordered by 1st Street SW/10th Avenue/Gulf Canada Square parkade/CPR tracks.

Make connections to the Penn West buildings, wide plus 15 over 9th Avenue to the parking lot between the Lougheed Building and the new Bankers Court building.

Or go further and use the area between 5th and 7th Streets SW. Making connections to the Centennial Parkade.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

How much of the listed $115 million for the NW extension is pure LRT work?

Since the actual track construction isn't slated for 2012-14, how much can we 'grab' back and redeploy by delaying track construction?

If I'm right there were 7 additional LRV's ordered for this extension (these are in the order thats already arriving), so theres roughly $25M. About $10M for the station itself (Crowfoot I believe was around $10M). Couple million for the park and rides probably. The bridges were a significant chunk of change, but those are already built and paid for. So the station, one traction power substation, caternary and track work will eat the rest. Theres really not much roadworks cost for this extension (unlike others), as the province picked up most of that tab by the sheer fact that they were already working there and things like re-aligning Crowchild to ensure the required R.O.W. was done in their plans.

Theres not much in the 2010/2011 budget for the extension above and beyond the bridges, the bulk of the money is 2012-2015. And as far as I'm aware track construction IS slated for 2012-2014, opening is still set for late 2014.

In the original capital budget it was something like 35M in year 1, 40M in year 2 and 12M in year 3 (the latter being mostly landscaping and finish-off costs I'd assume)

[MalcolmTucker]

For those just joining us, here are the options put forward by the transportation department as told by the newspaper :

Option 1

$10 million on southeast LRT planning
$200 million for extra C-Trains and a new regional bus system
$750 million over the next decade for a comprehensive network of new bus-only lanes and the vehicles for them (likely 17th Ave SE exclusive lanes, some for 14th St and 24th south of the reservoir)

Option 2

$10 million on southeast LRT planning
$? million on SE LRT land acquisition
$200? million on extra lrvs and a regional bus system
$750 million SE LRT from 10th Ave to Riverbend (Glenmore Tr and Sheperd Rd)

Option 3 (would not exactly fit Green Trip and would likely require both Calgary Regional Partnership approval, and cabinet approval for not fulfilling the 'regional' requirement)

A full line from Douglas Glen to 10th Avenue S. on downtown's edge

As an additional thought, remember none of these options have ground breaking on the SE LRT anytime soon.

A second additional thought: not only governments are eligible for Green Trip money. If SNC Lavalin as has been rumoured puts forward a plan to run commuter trains in partnership with CP, the government could approve that for a chunk of the funds. The government has been very fickle about this program, has been disappointed with the lack of 'innovation' in preliminary proposals, and changed the program substantially more than once.

[mersar]

Heres the exact options from the Council Agenda for tomorrow (item C2010-69)

Option 1 proposes the purchase of 50 Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs) plus funding for the Southeast LRT pre-design, land acquisition and other initial steps. When timing for the availability of additional Green TRIP funding is announced, The City will be in a better position to begin construction of the first segment of the Southeast LRT with a more detailed design and costing, a phasing strategy and additional funding sources. The purchase of additional LRVs will provide additional CTrain service capacity to handle growth in customer demand created by new inter-municipal regional transit services, serve additional Calgary-based customers, and allow for full four-car train operation. Additional funding from other Provincial programs, such as the Municipal Sustainability Initiative (MSI), can be used to provide the required 1/3 Calgary contribution.

Option 2 is to allocate all Green TRIP funds to Southeast LRT construction (10 Avenue S to Douglas Glen). Initially, during the first two to three years, pre-design, land acquisition and other initial steps are required. Since these steps are required before construction can start, much of the initial funding cannot be spent. Construction can only begin when the balance of the Green TRIP funds are made available. Pending availability of full Green TRIP funding, and identification of matching funds, it is anticipated that construction of the Southeast LRT could begin as early as 2013.

Option 3 (recommended) proposes the combination of the purchase of 50 LRVs, funding for the Southeast LRT pre-design and initiating BRT projects. The LRV purchase is identical to Option 1. The Southeast LRT predesign would be similar to option 1 but would not fund land purchase in the short term. The focus of Option 3 is to commence work on Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) projects. When additional Green TRIP funding is announced, remaining funds would be allocated towards projects based on the priorities identified in administration’s forthcoming response to NM2010-08 (BRT Network Plan), due in 2011 February.

Administration is recommending to council that they adopt option 3.

Costs are:

Option 1:
$200M for LRVs (city's matching funds are from pre-allocated monies for 20 LRV's)
$25.6M for SE LRT pre-design
$244.8M for SE LRT construction (matched by $489.6M from greentrip)

Option 2:
$320M for SE LRT from city matched hopefully by $640M from greentrip with no guarantee

Option 3:
$200M for LRV's (same as Option 1)
$10M for SE LRT pre-design
$15.6M for BRT now
Remaining GreenTrip funds to BRT as they become available past 2014 based on recommendations in NM2010-08 which is due in February 2011

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by mersar

Option 1:
$200M for LRVs (city's matching funds are from pre-allocated monies for 20 LRV's)
$25.6M for SE LRT pre-design
$244.8M for SE LRT construction (matched by $489.6M from greentrip)

I don't seem to recall this. There was already money allocated for 20 more LRVs?

[mersar]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I don't seem to recall this. There was already money allocated for 20 more LRVs?

According to the 2009-2011 capital budget there was $60M in 2011 and a further $36M in 2013 allocated for LRV purchases. That said there wasn't any in 2009 or 2010, and I'm guessing that the current order is probably the 2011 amount.

[frinkprof]

^Yeah I figured something like that would be the case.

[mersar]

Couple updates on the Electronic fare payment system. From LPT2010-66 which is going to the LPT committee this week:

A request for proposal (RFP) for a new EFC system was released in 2010 June and closed in September. Calgary Transit is evaluating the proposals received. Selection of a vendor and finalizing an agreement for purchase and implementation is expected to take place late in 2010. The system design phase will occur throughout most of 2011 with implementation planned for early 2012.

Calgary Transit is working towards implementing the first phase of an electronic fare collection (EFC) system. This system will provide customers with more convenient and flexible means of purchasing and using transit fares while creating opportunities for innovative fare strategies after the system has been in place for an appropriate length of time.

As well, Calgary Transit is investigating modification of some existing fare collection equipment to provide customers with an option to pay for a transit fare using their credit card at LRT stations. If feasible, these modifications could take place in 2011.

[Northski]

There is a few more details in the attachments to the agenda minutes

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/cache/2/daj4pn55vcprjc55iecgn2am/1312611072010065122894.PDF

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

Swinging SE LRT to the Stampede adds to Stampede access while leaving room on the northside for a 17th Avenue SE line.
SE LRT can also travel along 15 or 17th Avenue a wee bit before turning into downtown improving access in that area.

I think I see what you're getting at, but there is no way to get the SELRT over to the Stampede and then to downtown without a ridiculous amount of tunneling or elevated rail.

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

Actually, it's very useful.
Downtown to Douglas Glen is the same as Downtown to Panorama.

The difference is that Panorama is the edge of the city, for a while at least, whereas Douglasglen is about halfway to the edge. It would be like ending the SLRT at Southland, the WLRT at Westbrook, etc...

But I guess we will find out during the detailed design process. Hopefully they accept lots of public input for that

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by mersar

Option 3:
$200M for LRV's (same as Option 1)
$10M for SE LRT pre-design
$15.6M for BRT now
Remaining GreenTrip funds to BRT as they become available past 2014 based on recommendations in NM2010-08 which is due in February 2011

Given these choices, I'll take this one over half of a SELRT. At least the planning process will be started. At least we will get some BRT, and we will be able to run 4-car trains when we upgrade all the stations. It's just too bad none of this gets us SELRT, NCLRT, or the 8th ave subway.... It's also too bad that commuter trains are getting more attention than LRT.

[mooky]

No DarkKeyo, but the $10M SE pre-design doesn't preclude the possibility of getting a P3 partner down the road and going full tilt into it once the pre-design is done by the city, at that point, its shovels in the ground and off to the races! Then you have BRT routes out the ying-yang and a SE LRT... and perhaps by that time, post 2012 completion of West-LRT, Mayor Nenshi might have people on board with a NC line up Center Street, and make it a P3 SE-> NC line ... wishful dream on my part I know, but gotta dream big!

[fusili]

Anybody have any idea why SELRT is proposed to use low floor vehicles?

[mersar]

Low floor is the way that most new systems are going, cost of construction is far less (less material for the stations, less engineering). From my understanding the cost of LRV's is pretty much the same. Since the SELRT won't be tied directly into the existing lines using different equipment shouldn't be an issue (track guage would likely still be the same so they could theoretically use the same storage/maintance facilities if a link were built, but none has been envisioned to my knowledge)