[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

The cynical ones on this forum, including myself, have to admit that Howard Epstein's numbers were accurate. The numbers are higher than I expected. However, a large portion of the cost will be covered by annual revenue which I strongly believe will grow as predicted. I have mixed feelings - I had hoped that the costs would be lower. The interim financing increases the cost by $19 million. If the province and municipality were to pay the construction cost up front as scheduled payments then this cost wouldn't exist, however they would still be paying more interest cost on their earlier payments; but then the federal 1/3 payment of about $47 million for construction costs would come in earlier(?), thus slightly reducing interest costs to the municipality and province.

As a comparison to the Ottawa Convention Centre, their cost is $170 million versus $140 million for the Nova Centre ($119 + $21 million). I think the Nova Centre should be considered based on the actual construction and designs costs of $119 million plus $21 milllion for design = $140 million dollars since the interim financing cost wouldn't exist if the municipality and province were paying up-front based on predetermined scheduled lump sum payments.

I don't know what additional operational costs exist but the Ottawa Convention Centre will have: (source: http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/en/venue-services/facility-overview ).

* 192,000 sq. ft. / 17,837 sq. m. of usable space
* 28 meeting rooms in maximum configuration
* 56,000 sq. ft. / 5,203 sq. m. multipurpose hall with capacity 6,260 theatre-style, 4,600 banquet style
* 21,300 sq. ft. / 1,979 sq. m. ballroom with view of the Rideau Canal and Parliament Hill

Based on the Chronicle Herald story by D. Jackson the Nova Centre would have:

* 115,000 square feet of rentable convention space
* 35,500 square foot column-free ballroom
* 52,000 square feet of multi-purpose space
* 28,000 square feet of meeting room space.

PS: The allnovascotia.com states that the total space in the convention centre is 309,000 square feet - this is a good size. It sounds as though the Nova Centre is similar to the Ottawa Centre in terms of size but at a lower total cost (by subtracting the interim financing)

NOTE: The Nova Centre lists rentable space whereas the Ottawa Centre lists usable space - these might not be the same.

I think that the Niagara Convention Centre would beat both, at $93 million dollars they are getting: (source: http://www.fallsconventions.com/ )

* an 80,000 square foot free-span Exhibition Hall
* a distinctive 17,000 square foot Ballroom
* 26,500 square feet of flexible Meeting & Breakout Space
* an intimate 1,000 seat Theatre with live performances

[David1gray]

i found this article in "the news" new glasgow today, its from the opinions section.

Opinions wide on proposed centre

Anyone wanting to enter the debate over a proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax – pick a place to start.
There are all sorts of yea- and naysayers, citing plenty of issues regarding the much-debated centre. Much of that is about money, and that’s a good place to start.
The estimate announced this week is that it would cost provincial and Halifax Region taxpayers $327 million – spread over 25 years – for the building proposed by developer Rank Inc. Provincial officials also say the project would require $46.7-million from the federal government.
The NDP government is still deliberating on what is shaping up as a tough decision. Considering the province’s debt now stands in the $13 billion range, any costly project, no matter what the perceived benefits, is going to be a gamble.
Add to all this concerns from some that the design – with two towers and three times the size of the World Trade and Convention Centre – is being eyed for the wrong spot. Phil Pacey, chair of the Heritage Trust group in Halifax, said that as well as being too pricey, the centre would block views of the harbour from Citadel Hill.
On the other hand, the province says it estimates the centre would create about 12,000 jobs downtown and generate more than $40 million in provincial tax revenues during the first decade of operation. Another argument from the pro side is it takes large centres to host world-class events.
But one huge factor to consider at this point is that the rest of Nova Scotia is direly in need of development. With money directed into such a project from the province’s tax coffers, it is bound to turn into an ‘us versus Halifax’ proposition.
Also, it goes without saying that this is not the best time to toss crumbs to widespread areas. There may well be good points to the centre and general benefits to the province, but the provincial government should realize the cold shoulder it risks in the hinterlands if it does give it the OK

http://www.ngnews.ca/Opinion/Editorials/...27130/Opinions-wide-on-proposed-centre/1

[worldlyhaligonian]

Hmm... I never really considered the rest of the province being p-o'd about this this. Any rural companies should be doing their trade via Halifax in terms of their advisory, facilitation. I see some private sector international trade jobs being created. This is the regional hub concept that has proven itself quite well in the prairie provinces. Every rural business should see development in Halifax as actually a positive, particularly manufacturers.

Anyway, I'm obviously in favour of this development. I don't think anybody would disagree that its not a complicated discussion though.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's not a great design but it won't be as damaging as Scotia Square. Everything above Argyle is already dead, for one thing, and there seems to be some thought given to Argyle itself. I don't know what they plan on putting in the atrium running over Grafton Street but it should be okay since the blocks on either side are relatively successful.

I don't think the "it's dead already" argument is a good one for being able to propose something awkward and heavy-handed for such an urban site. In a city with healthy retail, commercial, and residential, perhaps a convention centre would work in a location like this, but I can't shake the feeling this site would be best served with something else on it (not a gaping hole either).

I support a new convention centre... and I think tall buildings could fit on this site appropriately... but, I fail to be convinced that this is the best place for a convention centre. For some reason, it makes sense to me that the city sould want to capitalize on its harbour and locate a convention centre somewhere on the waterfront. I also feel that the cogswell lands would have been a better location - close to downtown, but not IN downtown.

Has anything ever been said of what the fate of the current WTCC will be?

[fenwick16]

I think that it will suit Halifax well. I hope that the province can get the numbers down a bit though.

[Keith P.]

Arguing the numbers is a a mug's game -- what is a cost anyway? Is it the number in the Herald that includes the cost of the soap in the bathroom dispensers in 2029? Is it the construction cost? That plus the fit-up? All that plus the staffing? Does that include benefits and pension legacy costs? What about the offset from the presumed reuse or disposal of the existing WTCC site? You can see where this goes -- round and round and nobody can say where it ends.

The one odd thing in the numbers is the use of a 6.98 interest rate in the estimates. The province pays nowhere near that much for money, so I don't understand why they used that in the estimate.

[fenwick16]

There is a story in The Coast by Tim Bousquet. He believes that the Nova Centre will proceed unless Rank cannot get financing (he seems to be hoping this will occur so that Rank Inc. will not proceed). Here is a link to the story - http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/arch...ince-rolls-out-convention-centre-details

[fenwick16]

double post

[fenwick16]

The allnovascotia.com gave some more information on the Nova Centre project. They state that the total space in the Nova Centre is 309,000 square feet (which would include all hallways, stairways, etc.). The construction cost of $140 million sounds much better to me based on that stated square footage, especially since it includes all furnishings. So it seems like the $140 million dollar Nova Centre is probably a better deal than the $170 million Ottawa Centre - it just doesn't look as modern and elaborate (isn't this a result of the Nova Centre having to blend into the Halifax streetscape?). If the Nova Centre is functionally equivalent to the Ottawa Convention Centre then I think that it should compete well with the Ottawa Centre (the Nova Centre is in scenic Nova Scotia after all).

The parking garage takes up 190,000 square feet of the 1,200,00 square feet in the Nova Centre complex, plus 309,000 square feet is the convention centre which gives 499,000 square feet. So the hotel, retail and office tower are the remainder = 701,000 square feet. It looks like there is more space in the hotel than the office tower, so the office tower might be in the vicinity of 300,000 square feet (maybe even less) - this doesn't sound excessive enough to flood the downtown office market.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The one odd thing in the numbers is the use of a 6.98 interest rate in the estimates. The province pays nowhere near that much for money, so I don't understand why they used that in the estimate.

This does sound high. I remember reading that Rank Inc. has to arrange the financing. This could be the best rate that a private company can get for a long term loan. However, why wouldn't the province arrange the financing directly in order to get a better rate? Hopefully these items can be negotiated over the coming few months in order to get the interest payments lower.

[David1gray]

N.S. ponders sale of aging convention centre

The Nova Scotia government is looking at selling an aging convention centre in Halifax to offset the cost of building a new one proposed in the city's downtown.

Premier Darrell Dexter said Thursday he has been talking to the mayor of Halifax about selling the World Trade and Convention Centre to the city.

Dexter said his cabinet hasn't yet decided whether it will move ahead with the controversial plan to build the new centre.

He said the city has land the province might be interested in as part of the deal.

Mayor Peter Kelly said the city is reviewing the proposal, but he wants to make sure the costs make sense to taxpayers.

The NDP government announced Wednesday that the new centre would cost taxpayers about $327 million over 25 years — a figure that has been criticized by some as being too costly.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/10/07/ns-convention-centre-wtcc.html

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This does sound high. I remember reading that Rank Inc. has to arrange the financing. This could be the best rate that a private company can get for a long term loan. However, why wouldn't the province arrange the financing directly in order to get a better rate? Hopefully these items can be negotiated over the coming few months in order to get the interest payments lower.

28,000 direct jobs within ten years and 12,000 immediately??????? I am all about development. BUt this deal needs to be looked over very carefully. Dont lump me in with the save the view house huggers. The breakouts of whop pays for what and who owns what is very confusing at this point. The armoyans and others are making millions off the P3 deals. this looks like even a sweeter deal

[q12]

From News 95.7

Premier pitches mayor on buying old convention centre
Jennifer Casey Oct 07, 2010 14:55:34 PM
There's still no decision on the proposed downtown convention centre, but Premier Darrell Dexter says he's shopped the old convention centre building to HRM.

Signs as of late seem to indicate that the government has indeed already made a decision. When asked what Justice Minister Ross Landry's rural Pictou constituents think about the project:

"I think the decision is a sound decision, I think that the information that we're basing it on and where we're going as a province. It will have economic benefit throughout the province," said Landry.

And although Landry does make it sound as though a decision has been made, Landry followed up with, "We'll wait and see what the decision is."

Meanwhile Dexter says he met with Mayor Peter Kelly to officially hand over the convention centre documents.

"I have suggested to him that the city of Halifax may wish to purchase that building," says Dexter.

Dexter says they'd be looking for fair market value on the building and negotiations may involve a land swap.

Meanwhile, Mayor Peter Kelly says because the building is attached to the city-owned Metro Centre and it's close to City Hall, it is something they'll explore.

"We have to make sure we don't lose any opportunities to correct operational issues with the Metro Centre," says Kelly.

Kelly says the aging Metro Centre requires more washrooms, concessions areas and perhaps even more seating.

This seems like a one of the smartest ideas that has come out of city hall. Buy or land swap for the Convention centre and finally fix the metro centre issues. Seating capacity increases along with moving the sky boxes into a less obstructing view. If I remember correctly the Metro Centre's roof was designed to be expandable, it would be nice to see the metro centre expand capacity to 14,000 to 15,000 without costing a ton of money and still look at building a new outdoor stadium.


From the herald

Dexter talks WTC sale with Kelly: Is new centre a done deal?

By JEFFREY SIMPSON Provincial Reporter
Thu, Oct 7 - 6:05 PM
Premier Darrell Dexter has already discussed with Halifax Mayor Peter Kelly the possibility of selling the existing convention centre to the city, all but confirming officially that the province intends to support the project.

“I indicated to him one of the concerns we have is the disposition of the current facility,” Dexter said Thursday.
“And I have suggested to him the city of Halifax may wish to purchase that building.”

Dexter described Kelly as being interested in acquiring the building, located directly across Argyle Street from city hall, for municipal offices when the two met on Wednesday. The city already owns the adjacent Metro Centre.

“We need to know with some certainty there’s not going to be an empty building in downtown Halifax,” Dexter said.

He said he wants to get fair-market value for the site, but suggested swapping the World Trade Convention Centre for some land the municipality now owns as part of a deal; he didn’t specify the parcels that would interest the province.

His government still hasn’t officially announced a decision on funding the project, part of a 1.2-million square foot development proposed for the former Halifax Herald Ltd. site in downtown Halifax.

It would cost provincial and municipal taxpayers more than $325 million to lease and maintain over 25 years. There’s no upfront cost to the province or municipality.

“Our level of comfort with it continues to grow,” Dexter said. “It’s an exciting opportunity for the city and the province.

“I am persuaded by what I have seen with respect to both the benefits and the obvious lack of the current facility to be able to meet the needs of the region.”

But before committing the province to any project Dexter said he wants to make sure it’s a good one.

“We live daily with the results of the decisions that have been made by past governments,” he said, pointing to an unfavourable and costly leasing deal with another downtown office building and P3 schools as examples.

“ And we are experiencing through our budget lines what those decisions mean, so I think we have the right to be careful, we have the right to be considerate of taxpayers money.”

Ottawa won’t consider it for funding as a P3 project, but the province is hoping it will cover $47 million — one-third of the construction and design costs.

Dexter said he wants to ensure Halifax is a vibrant provincial and regional capital, but there’s not currently enough office space to attract new business.

“Our government is not about clinging to the vestiges of the past — our government is about the future of this province,” he said.

“We haven’t built really a class A office building in this province I think since I was in law school — and that wasn’t yesterday.”

Justice Minister Ross Landry appeared to inadvertently let slip earlier in the morning which way the government was leaning when it came to funding the centre.

“The decision is a sound decision,” he said.

“The information that we’re basing it on and where we’re going as a province, it’ll have an economic benefit throughout the province.”

Kelly said there are several things that must be considered before the municipality cuts a deal to buy the centre, such as upgrading the aging restroom and canteen facilities at the adjoining Metro Centre.

“We don’t know where that will go,” Kelly said.

“We didn’t say we’re buying or selling or doing anything.”

But he’d be interested in acquiring such an asset if it benefits taxpayers, he said. The municipality now leases office space scattered throughout the municipality, so this may allow it to put some of the offices together.

Project naysayers dismiss the convention centre as not being worthwhile.

“This is a very bad project,” Phil Pacey, of Save the View Coalition, said.

“The government doesn’t seem yet to have understood that the cost of this project is very much greater than than any potential benefits than they might gain.”

His group is worried the convention centre will block the view of Halifax Harbour from the top of Citadel Hill.

“Some visitors to the province told us, just volunteered the fact, that if this project goes forward they will not return to Nova Scotia again,” Pacey said.

“That is something that really has to concern people.”
Bruce DeVenne, who operates the website www.governmentripoff.com, said he doesn’t understand how Halifax could compete with other cities such as Las Vegas or Toronto for conventions.

“It’s all hype,” he said.
“The public has no business getting involved in this.”

The entire cost of Rank Inc.’s proposed project is about $500 million, although taxpayers would only be involved with the convention centre part of it. It would also include a hotel, office tower, retail space and parkade.

The new convention centre is going to happen if both the premier and mayor are for it.

[hfxtradesman]

Premier Darrell Dexter was on CTV with Steve Murphy tonight basically letting the cat out of the bag saying that this is a very good deal for the province and really the only thing was the old WTCC, that he is trying to sell to the city. Once this gets settled the project will be announced.

Plus the premier said that there will be some other big developments going ahead also in the near future in the downtown area, after Steve Murphy asked him if the city was anti-development.

[Empire]

The existing convention centre would make a great city hall annex. Burrow under Argyle street with a connecting tunnel to the existing City Hall and you would have a great complex.

Why don't people like Bruce DeVenne complain about wasting taxpayers money on advertising for tourism. The premise is that if you invest money in tourism advertising then perhaps someone will come to the province and spend money.

Taxpayers money spent on a convention centre is a better bet in terms of people coming to the province and spending money. Convention goers not only spend on average $1600 per visit but could return with their families for a vacation. In addition, conventions allow business alliances to be formed and the potential exists for businesses to expand or relocate here. The financial services industry is worthy of support. Bruce D where do you want "your" tax $$$ invested?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hfxtradesman

Plus the premier said that there will be some other big developments going ahead also in the near future in the downtown area, after Steve Murphy asked him if the city was anti-development.

I wonder if the province is still interested in building new offices at Barrington and George, filling in the north end of the block and retaining the Dennis Building facade?

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by q12

The new convention centre is going to happen if both the premier and mayor are for it.

What about the Prime Minister?

[halifaxboyns]

I don't agree with your comment Q12 about more seating and moving the sky boxes if HRM buys up the old convention centre. If they buy it up; they'll need it for offices so it will probably stay in place to a certain extent - although who knows at this point?

I think Empire is going down the right road from the perspective of bringing tourists to Halifax. As I've said in this thread and posting on CBC, part of the difficulty with a convention centre is quantifying the spin offs. Each city that has a conference has the ability to attract a lot of attention to itself and bring in people primarily for the conference, but entice them back with the scenery. Vancouver and Calgary are good examples of that (with their proximity to the mountains and Vancouver to the ocean).

I'd go one step further and say that if this is built, between the natural draw of just coming here to attend a conference and the money put into tourism spending for advertisements - the return should be pretty good.

[planarchy]

Who hates downtown?
The Chronicle-Herald and Chamber of Commerce abandoned downtown; now they lecture us on how to save it.
by Tim Bousquet

Who hates downtown Halifax? Certainly not the thousands of people who head to Argyle Street for post-work drinks. Most definitely not the shoppers mobbing the Spring Garden Road shopping district. And unquestioningly, without a doubt, not the crowds that flock to the boardwalk every chance they get.

By all indications, regular Haligonians love downtown. And why shouldn't they? It's a lovely place, with wonderful views of the harbour, interesting architecture and shops and a fun mix of different slices of our community---office grunts rubbing elbows with university students, artists, blue-collar workers and the odd newspaper reporter.

But there is one group that hates downtown Halifax: the political and business establishment that runs this town.

The political and business leadership first set out to destroy downtown in the 1960s, when it decided to forever cut downtown off from the waterfront by building a six-lane expressway called Harbour Drive atop what is now the boardwalk. Only after the horrific Cogswell Interchange was built did a group of historic preservationists stop those plans; no one now thinks Harbour Drive was a good idea, but while the historic preservations are vilified as the enemy of an undefined, but vaunted, "progress," the establishment suffered no consequences whatsoever from their very bad idea.

Frustrated at their first attempt, business and political groups moved on to a second plan: they'd kill downtown by subsidizing suburban development. Sure enough, Eaton's, a Barrington Street anchor of downtown, moved out to the West End Mall. By the 1990s, the leaders of the former cities of Dartmouth and Halifax were outdoing each other in constructing the suburban business parks of Burnside and Bayers Lake, selling off below-market priced land. The big box districts sprung up, sucking the retail heart out of downtown. The same with office space: earlier this year, city council approved expansion of both BLIP and Burnside for new office buildings, which will rent for a fraction of the price of downtown offices.

Not satisfied with knocking it to the ground, the business elite decided to kick downtown while it was down: The Chamber of Commerce moved its headquarters out to Burnside, and the Chronicle-Herald, whose workers made the Argyle Street bar district possible, moved out to the rotary. Both moves deprived downtown shops of another set of customers, and also sent businesses a clear signal about which business districts matter and which don't.

But now, business propagandists tell us, they love, love, love downtown, and they're going to save it by having us pay for a shiny new convention centre. Blithely unaware of their hypocrisy while sitting in their new rotary office, Chronicle-Herald columnists Marilla Stephenson and Roger Taylor continue to rail against those who oppose the convention centre; Stephenson and Taylor would better serve their own reputations if they'd put out more trite columns about privatizing the sewage system and how to save point three of a cent on heating oil, and leave off about downtown altogether, at least until their employer apologizes and moves back downtown.

If it had any self-respect, the Chamber too would slink away and hide rather than offer up an opinion about downtown, yet here's Chamber president Valerie Payn, drooling over the prospect of construction tenders for her members, issuing a press release saying we taxpayers need to pony up for the convention centre because "Investing in our urban core is long overdue." But if the goddamned Chamber of Commerce won't invest in the urban core, why should anyone else?

The establishment's pro-convention centre argument basically comes down to "Downtown sucks!"---the empty lots and papered-over storefronts that the establishment itself caused to exist are held up as proof that, the huge numbers who actually like and use downtown notwithstanding, downtown sucks, so we better cough up $160 million.

"Downtown sucks!" probably isn't the best marketing slogan, because it's not make-believe convention-going business people from Toronto and Vancouver who will determine the future success of downtown, but rather everyday people in Cole Harbour, Bedford and Clayton Park: if they come downtown it will thrive; if not, it won't.

And those suburbanites won't be coming downtown to visit a convention centre, but they might come for the same reasons that those who already love downtown come: because it's a pretty neat place.

[fenwick16]

Another off-the-wall column by Tim Bousquet. It shows his anti-establishment leanings. I guess that he is still licking his wounds because the convention centre appears to be moving forwards.