PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread - Page 709

allovertown · #**14161** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 2:52 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nova08

No, you read what you wanted to read and spun it.

The likes of JJ Redick also include Jimmy Butler who after he left town all but called out Ben Simmons' work ethic.

...move along

And it's been encouraging progress the past few years. But between 2007 - 2017 they averaged in the 13k-17k range. Hate for them to fall back into that with a center city arena.

Plenty of reasons to be skeptical about a center city arena, but I truly don't get this one. What would really be so terrible about the sixers doing worse in attendance?

Imagine the added buzz and activity around 8th and market if there were even only 13000 fans showing up. What difference does it make if they're not selling it out?

Besides those attendance numbers while the team was very bad, betray an overall interest in a team that always ranked highly in viewership and merchandise even in years they struggled to win 10 games. And the whole point of a downtown arena is going to a game is no longer just a big production specifically about going to a game. You can go to a restaurant, a bar, etc, it's part of a night out. Only a die hard is heading to the sports complex to warch a terrible team. But anyone out on the town including tourists and conventioners could decide to drop in for a game at 8th and market.

Regardless, the sixers themselves are just a small part of the equation, just 41-55 nights of what they would hope to be 200+ nights the arena would be in use.

You're thinking way too micro. Jimmy Butler beefing with Ben Simmons? Lol that's completely irrelevant to what we're talking about, in 2031 they'll be 41 and 35 years old respectively.

KDD · #**14162** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 3:00 AM**

Well geez, if the goal is to attract free agents, I bet you'll find a lot more Sixers over the years living in places like Gladwyne and Shamong than you do Center City. I love Center City but I'm not buying an arena next to Jeff and a glorified outlet mall is going to sway a player away from MSG or Inglewood.

"Hey Lebron, I know you love LA but have you ever dreamed of playing next to a J Crew store!?!?"

allovertown · #**14163** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDD

Well geez, if the goal is to attract free agents, I bet you'll find a lot more Sixers over the years living in places like Gladwyne and Shamong than you do Center City. I love Center City but I'm not buying an arena next to Jeff and a glorified outlet mall is going to sway a player away from MSG or Inglewood.

"Hey Lebron, I know you love LA but have you ever dreamed of playing next to a J Crew store!?!?"

It's irrelevant and it's not even about basketball. They're 100% not building it there. Or anywhere outside of center city.

KDD · #**14164** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 3:27 AM**

If the Sixers are hell bent on getting NIZ funding (not clear how flexible they are on that) this entire conversation is irrelevant because there is no way a new NIZ zone will be created when every jurisdiction is facing a financial hole, let alone a NIZ for Center City of all places.

I am 99% sure it will require a change in state law to get a new NIZ zone, which has less than 0% chance of happening, even in good economic times. Its frankly a miracle the NIZ was created for downtown Allentown to begin with.

If Harris wants to pay for it all himself, as well as infrastructure upgrades, that changes everything.

TonyTone · #**14165** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 4:18 AM**

Wait has anyone thought of redeveloping the Convention center with a basketball court that can be interchangeable for all events?

It could still be used for everything & have the added bonus of being upgraded with all new tech that would come with adding an interchangeable basketball court.

fits the memo of

Close to transit
Close to highway
Center city
Best Location
Good restaurants and stores
Plenty of hotels
DOWNTOWN

would this work?

Londonee · #**14166** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 5:14 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDD

I realize this is not a "sexy" pick by any means, but why not find a stretch of land around Conshohocken/Whitemarsh/Plymouth Meeting? Its connected to the regional rail, fantastic access to major highways as well. I seems to me if the area is going to have another arena, why not on more of the less the opposite side of town?

A Center City arena makes no sense to me. If City City was dead after 5 PM and people could easily access it (like so many downtowns, easy access because they are dead after 5 PM) that would make sense. I don't see the point, CC doesn't need help, other parts of the region certainly do.

This is one of the worst takes I’ve read on here in a long while. Basketball is theater. Theater belongs in the city.

KDD · #**14167** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 7:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Londonee

This is one of the worst takes I’ve read on here in a long while. Basketball is theater. Theater belongs in the city.

That is a well worded but meaningless statement. Basketball is theatre? Is it? Theatre belongs in the city? Says you?

In my lifetime I've seen the Spurs and Piston wins multiple championships in literal suburban football stadiums and that was far more memorable than the Mavs winning in 2011 in their downtown arena. Why? Because sports memories aren't dependent on location, despite what you say.

I said my pick wasn't sexy but don't confuse smart development with sports memories or "theatre". If your enjoyment of sports is dependent (not influenced, but dependent) on location of the event, then you aren't a sports fan. Thats not a criticism, but an observation.

PNC Park is fantastic, the best modern stadium in MLB but there are roughly zero people over age 30 that say their favorite Pirate memory is there. Why? Because the "theatre" is whats on the field, not where the field is.

Put Yankee Stadium in Piscataway, and keep the 27 or whatever World Series, no one is complaining.

Jawnadelphia · #**14168** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 11:53 AM**

I think you guys are missing out on the real motive of Josh Harris and company. They want Philly to deny them their picked location so they can threaten to move the arena over to the Camden side - next to their new practice facility, where they will get even more insane tax breaks from NJ ... to then use that threat to get whatever they want from Philly. It's how these hedge fund assholes work.

Anyway, as many have said, the best bet is to keep the Sports Complex together, and build up that area into an mixed-use destination. So many of the Philly sports teams season ticket holders are from the burbs, South Jersey, Delaware -- they love to tailgate, to jump on the highway, and go home. That's all they've experienced in their entire Philly sports-fandom (decades!, a few generations now), and that's the way they like it.

Not trying to be stereotypical, but to equate the Philly sports fan (I am a die hard fan) to the "theater crowd" ... what theater crowd guy is running outside to eat horse-shit and climb poles on the streets of CC after a wonderful performance of "Ave Maria"?!?!

christof · #**14169** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 1:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jawnadelphia

I think you guys are missing out on the real motive of Josh Harris and company. They want Philly to deny them their picked location so they can threaten to move the arena over to the Camden side - next to their new practice facility, where they will get even more insane tax breaks from NJ ... to then use that threat to get whatever they want from Philly. It's how these hedge fund assholes work.

Anyway, as many have said, the best bet is to keep the Sports Complex together, and build up that area into an mixed-use destination. So many of the Philly sports teams season ticket holders are from the burbs, South Jersey, Delaware -- they love to tailgate, to jump on the highway, and go home. That's all they've experienced in their entire Philly sports-fandom (decades!, a few generations now), and that's the way they like it.

Not trying to be stereotypical, but to equate the Philly sports fan (I am a die hard fan) to the "theater crowd" ... what theater crowd guy is running outside to eat horse-shit and climb poles on the streets of CC after a wonderful performance of "Ave Maria"?!?!

New Jersey is in worse fiscal shape than Philly / Pennsylvania. That NJ state pension debt would put them into bankruptcy if a state was permitted to file.

No way NJ ponies up $$ for a new arena.

I get why Harris is doing this. A new arena increases the value of the franchise. He won't be getting one in this region, which leads to one of two possible outcomes.

1. He is about to sell the franchise.

2. He will look at moving the team out of the region.

Added bonus - we may see shortly the popping of the sports financial bubble. No one, however, is factoring this in currently.

Jawnadelphia · #**14170** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 1:29 PM**

^He won't sell the franchise without a new arena plan/deal signed, sealed and delivered.

He can't relocate the 76ers -- honestly, he can't. The NBA views the Sixers as a flagship franchise, and an absolute must have market, with too much NBA history and nostalgia tied to it (Wilt, Dr. J, Charles, AI, the battles with the Celtics and Lakers, to today). The NBA, Board of Governors wouldn't allow it, absolutely would not.

allovertown · #**14171** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 2:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by christof

New Jersey is in worse fiscal shape than Philly / Pennsylvania. That NJ state pension debt would put them into bankruptcy if a state was permitted to file.

No way NJ ponies up $$ for a new arena.

I get why Harris is doing this. A new arena increases the value of the franchise. He won't be getting one in this region, which leads to one of two possible outcomes.

1. He is about to sell the franchise.

2. He will look at moving the team out of the region.

Added bonus - we may see shortly the popping of the sports financial bubble. No one, however, is factoring this in currently.

There is a less than zero percent chance the team is moved. You said it yourself, these guys love money, where could they move that would give them even a fraction of income potential as being the only pro basketball team in the 4th largest media market in the country that famously is really into sports?

As far as a move to South Jersey goes, where the team would be able to continue to brand themselves as the Philadelphia 76ers, I suppose it's certainly possible they threaten that for leverage but it also ain't happening. No matter how many subsidies and tax breaks they get, this will still be a major investment by the owners and they're not trying to invest in a large arena in camden.

Again a big part of this plan is the non-basketball aspect of the arena and the ability to differentiate from wells fargo with a downtown location that their data shows them would be an advantage. An arena in camden is functionally no different than one in deep south Philly, in fact there's a strong argument to be made that it would be in a worse position to attract concerts and events. Not to mention there's already a 25,000 person capacity concert venue in camden they'd also have to compete with.

They want an arena, they want it in center city, and they want to extract as much money from the city and state as possible. If the city and state shut them out of any financial breaks my understanding of the situation is that they think they'd still benefit by building it themselves before selling the team.

And I wouldn't hold my breath on the sports bubble collapsing in this country. So many impossibly rich assholes in America and a very limited supply of pro sports teams.

City Wide · #**14172** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 6:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jawnadelphia

^He won't sell the franchise without a new arena plan/deal signed, sealed and delivered.

He can't relocate the 76ers -- honestly, he can't. The NBA views the Sixers as a flagship franchise, and an absolute must have market, with too much NBA history and nostalgia tied to it (Wilt, Dr. J, Charles, AI, the battles with the Celtics and Lakers, to today). The NBA, Board of Governors wouldn't allow it, absolutely would not.

If Harris wants to move to better control the environment and the money spent on game day I wonder if the 8th & Market site is large enough. Besides ticket sales and in stadium sales CC doesn't look like theres room for a out of stadium development, restaurants, maybe a hotel. I assume it would cost a fortune to build over a new stadium

Vince_ · #**14173** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 7:41 PM**

I love the Delaware Ave and Callowhill spot for a stadium. There's access to 95, 676 and the Spring Garden El stop. There's that awesome old factory brick building too that could be incorporated into the design/complex. You'd have an entertainment district from Morgan's Pier, Dave and Busters, stadium, casino, Fillmore, Punchline and Goose Island.

farfromhome · #**14174** Posted **Aug 29, 2020, 7:53 PM**

How about the series of surface lots just north of the new half of the convention center. Broad to 13th, Vine to Race...Its a tight fit but large enough. Site has direct highway access, BSL stop, and can be physically connected to the convention center allowing for large coordinated events such as DNC/RNC. 20K seat arena's attract less than the daily average of flower show attendees so we know the existing infrastructure(parking etc...) can handle the volume. The arena could even utilize the existing elevated convention center loading area. With Hanneman closed the "ancillary" med offices on broad are poised t leave as well.

Jayfar · #**14175** Posted **Aug 30, 2020, 12:25 PM**

Sixers eye more than a new arena along Philly’s Delaware waterfront | Inga Saffron

Excerpt:
The arena is a small piece of the project. Rather than pack Penn’s Landing with entertainment boxes, the franchise’s wealthy owners Josh Harris and David Blitzer are focused on creating a mixed-use neighborhood that is largely attuned to the spirit of the 2010 master plan. The proposal was even prepared by the planning consultant that cowrote the waterfront master plan, Cooper Robertson. In their submission to the DRWC, the Sixers promise to bring thousands of apartments, a hotel, two museums, a dozen or so restaurants, a supermarket, and a new public school — along with that 19,000-seat arena — to the Delaware waterfront. Some parking is envisioned, but most would be tucked out of sight.

Depending on how you feel about a bunch of sports executives taking on Philadelphia’s most cursed real estate project, the Sixers’ proposal is either a display of canny ambition or ill-informed greed.

The plan, according to the source who described it, “dwarfs everything anyone else has proposed.” While the DRWC competition document identifies two parcels for development — a 7.5-acre surface lot at Market Street and a 3.4-acre site just south of Spruce Harbor Park, near the marina basin — Harris and Blitzer have asked the waterfront agency to let them develop a much larger geographic area. Rather than limit themselves to the two sites, they want the rights to every riverfront lot between Market and Lombard. Having that extra land would allow the Sixers to build six residential buildings, instead of four — plus a hotel, offices, and school.

Jawnadelphia · #**14176** Posted **Aug 30, 2020, 1:04 PM**

^Sure, it sounds and looks ambitious on paper, but do we really trust Harris and company to see this through? We are talking about what, over a decade of construction until the new arena is even open for the 2032 season. I can totally see once this is approved, Harris selling the team for about a $1.5 billion profit, and the new owner never coming close to building everything listed here. Meanwhile, we are all left with the white whale on the riverfront, surrounded by a park (95 cap) and new parking lots.

Urbanthusiat · #**14177** Posted **Aug 30, 2020, 4:53 PM**

Ask Pittsburgh about giving a sports team control over a prime development site for anything other than a stadium.

The lesson? Don't.

Londonee · #**14178** Posted **Aug 30, 2020, 10:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Ask Pittsburgh about giving a sports team control over a prime development site for anything other than a stadium.

The lesson? Don't.

Yeah - i'm more skeptical about this now that i see how ambitious their plans are... I think an arena could work on the waterfront especially if on its River and Park frontages it was open to the public for a promenade with 76ers Store, bars, restaurants and other retail spots...

In response to Inga's question about what Philadelphia gains in general... as a Center City Resident and Sixers season ticket holder ---it gains a new arena within WALKING DISTANCE OF 100,000 CENTER CITY RESIDENTS.

I think many of us agree that 8th and Market would probably be the best for the city, but wouldn't the 30th street station rail yards be a good location for this as well? Walkable to center city and the river trail - accessible to the subway/30th street regional/amtrak?

Jawnadelphia · #**14179** Posted **Aug 31, 2020, 12:03 AM**

This site is wild wild. So the homeless encampment continues, I literally watched a lady shoot up in her leg next to the Rodin as I snapped these .... $2 mil+ FOR SALE!
Tale of two cities and realities on full display.

2100 Hamilton:

PurpleWhiteOut · #**14180** Posted **Aug 31, 2020, 12:31 AM**

So I know this was talked about once on the forum, but does anyone have any idea yet what's going on with 932-934 Arch st? aka the never ending Chinatown overbuild? This project(?) has been going on for years, and I haven't seen any meaningful progress in the last half year or more, not that that's unusual here. Is it stalled/abandoned? Is it even up to code with its weird lack of windows/windows directly facing each other in the window well(?) Do you think they'll apply for more overbuild floors again and one day accidentally meet the criteria for a highrise for this forum?