What cities have a high quality of life?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Detroit arguably has a pretty good QoL. Not my cup of tea but it makes sense. High U.S. incomes and high quality, relatively affordable housing, major intl. airport, strong legacy assets and about as easy to get around as any global metro of 5 million. No growth metros like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo allow middle class households to access big homes and good school districts with nearby high culture at relatively low prices. And your kids have potential access to University of Michigan, a huge asset.

In contrast, much of the Sunbelt is much more expensive, schools are worse, traffic is worse and there's no legacy high culture. And there are lots of good public colleges in places like FL, TX, TN, GA, AZ, but nothing equivalent to UM. Different strokes.

… Michigan is #3 among the publics and half of the top ten are southern.

UNC-Chapel Hill (#4), UVa (#5), UF (#6, tie), UT-Austin (#9, tie), and Georgia Tech (#10, tie) are all exceptional schools that rival Michigan-Ann Arbor.

In fact, the entire top 10 USNews list is California and the South… except for Michigan. UI-Urbana-Champaign and UW-Madison are tied at #12. Scrolling through the next 50 has regular appearances of southern public schools, no better or worse than the distribution of any other region.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

… Michigan is #3 among the publics and half of the top ten are southern.

UNC-Chapel Hill (#4), UVa (#5), UF (#6, tie), UT-Austin (#9, tie), and Georgia Tech (#10, tie) are all exceptional schools that rival Michigan-Ann Arbor.

I'd disagree. And the rankings bear that out. UM consistently ranked higher, across the various rankings, undergrad and grad. Those other schools are all very good, but almost always ranked lower. Also, I'm talking Sunbelt, not Census definition of Southern.

Another advantage - Michigan has declining K-12 student population, meaning it's likely easier for in-state student to get into UM. It's actually very hard to get into schools like UF, due to booming in-state population. So a middle class family in MI can access elite higher ed easier than almost anywhere.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'd disagree. And the rankings bear that out. UM consistently ranked higher. Those other schools are all very good, but almost always ranked lower.

Another advantage - Michigan has declining K-12 student population, meaning it's likely easier for in-state student to get into UM. It's actually very hard to get into schools like UF, due to booming in-state population. So a middle class family in MI can access elite higher ed easier than almost anywhere.

Really? You think there’s some kind of fundamental difference in being ranked third rather than fourth?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Really? You think there’s some kind of fundamental difference in being ranked third rather than fourth?

Yes. I do think a school ranked third is ranked higher than a school ranked fourth. But it's actually sixth, not fourth. I never mentioned UNC or UVA, and UNC and UVA aren't really newer or Sunbelt universities.

But that isn't my argument. Again, UM is consistently ranked higher, across rankings methodologies, across disciplines. USNWR, WSJ, NYT, etc. Undergrad and Grad. UM is ranked highly in almost every discipline.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Detroit arguably has a pretty good QoL. Not my cup of tea but it makes sense. High U.S. incomes and high quality, relatively affordable housing, major intl. airport, strong legacy assets and about as easy to get around as any global metro of 5 million. No growth metros like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo allow middle class households to access big homes and good school districts with nearby high culture at relatively low prices. And your kids have potential access to University of Michigan, a huge asset.

In contrast, much of the Sunbelt is much more expensive, schools are worse, traffic is worse and there's no legacy high culture. And there are lots of good public colleges in places like FL, TX, TN, GA, AZ, but nothing equivalent to UM. Different strokes.

Though urban vibrancy is limited or at least deficient and hit-and-miss. It's one of the criteria for this thread and for SSP threads in general.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though urban vibrancy is limited or at least deficient and hit-and-miss. It's one of the criteria for this thread and for SSP threads in general.

Right, urban vibrancy generally sucks, no question. For SSP, Detroit is a poor option.

But I'm not sure the average family on this planet places any QoL weight on urban vibrancy. It's usually stuff like job, home, school, family.

[wwmiv]

I’ll go even further, and point out that you’re just wrong…

Since US News started ranking schools, these have been the results for the south’s generally agreed upon two best public schools versus Michigan (rankings from the overall list, including private schools)

1983: Michigan (#7) ranked, no southern schools included.
1985: Chapel Hill (#9) outranked Michigan (#12) and UVa (#13) was ranked.
1988: Michigan (#8) outranked all southern schools, but Chapel Hill (#11), UVa (#15), and UT (#26) are included on the very limited list (UT is the last inclusion).
1989: UVa (#20) and Chapel Hill (#23) outrank Michigan (#25)
1990: Michigan (#17) outranks Chapel Hill (#18) and UVa (#21)
1991: UVa (#18) and Chapel Hill (#20) outrank Michigan (#21)
1992: UVa (#21) outranks Michigan (#22) which outranks Chapel Hill (#25)
1993-1998: UVa outranks Michigan (Chapel Hill usually in close contention with Michigan)
1999: UVa and Chapel Hill outrank Michigan
2000-2004: UVa outranks Michigan (Chapel Hill always within four places of Michigan, UT, Georgia Tech, and Florida start making regular appearances in the top 50).
2005: Michigan (#22) outranks UVa (#23) and other southern schools are further behind
2006: UVa (#24) outranks Michigan (#26) and Chapel Hill (#26)
2007: Michigan (#23) outranks UVa (#24) and Chapel Hill (#27)
2008-2019: UVa outranks Michigan by 2-4 places (which outranks Chapel Hill, the majority of years by 1 placement only)
2020: Michigan (#24) outranks UVa (#26) and Chapel Hill slides to #32, behind #31 UF.
2021: Michigan and UVa tie (=#25) and UF and Chapel Hill tie just behind them.
2022: Michigan outranks UVa by two places and Chapel Hill by more.

Sources:
(thru 2019) https://datasciencetexts.com/diversi...anks_race.html
(post 2019) https://andyreiter.com/wp-content/up...22-23-24-1.pdf

You’re quite wrong. The school are basically the same quality. FWIW, Michigan partially built its academic reputation on political scientists and survey research (hence why the term “The Michigan Model” refers to the set of academic work produced by those scholars). Many of whom left the school and department in their later years to go to… UVa, Chapel Hill, and University of Houston. Some of them even eventually renounced the model altogether.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Detroit arguably has a pretty good QoL. Not my cup of tea but it makes sense. High U.S. incomes and high quality, relatively affordable housing, major intl. airport, strong legacy assets and about as easy to get around as any global metro of 5 million. No growth metros like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo allow middle class households to access big homes and good school districts with nearby high culture at relatively low prices. And your kids have potential access to University of Michigan, a huge asset.

In contrast, much of the Sunbelt is much more expensive, schools are worse, traffic is worse and there's no legacy high culture. And there are lots of good public colleges in places like FL, TX, TN, GA, AZ, but nothing equivalent to UM. Different strokes.

I actually agree with this - especially now that Downtown Detroit is really coming to it's own. Michigan offers a great quality of life with good incomes, affordable real estate, and very low traffic congestion meaning absolutely excellent mobility. Plus Detroit gives access to all major sports teams, a relatively healthy and interesting downtown (which is rapidly improving too). The downtown isn't New York, and you aren't going to be living a transit-supported, urban lifestyle, but if that isn't super important to you, it's great.

The thing that keeps it cheap I think is the reputation Detroit has and it's weather.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yes. I do think a school ranked third is ranked higher than a school ranked fourth. But it's actually sixth, not fourth. I never mentioned UNC or UVA, and UNC and UVA aren't really newer or Sunbelt universities.

But that isn't my argument. Again, UM is consistently ranked higher, across rankings methodologies, across disciplines. USNWR, WSJ, NYT, etc. Undergrad and Grad. UM is ranked highly in almost every discipline.

No, it’s fourth among public schools:

1. UC-Berkeley
2. UCLA
3. Michigan
4. Chapel Hill
5. UVa
=6. UC-Davis
=6. UC-San Diego
=6. UF
9. UT
=10. Georgia Tech
=10. UC-Irvine

Source:
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...ies/top-public

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Crawford

...Fort Worth, SA and EP are more interesting than others. Even those three are fundamentally weak and relatively unimportant in their regions but they aren't cookie-cutter.

I live in San Antonio. Every time I walk in Downtown, I feel like I'm constantly mistaken for an unsuspecting tourist from whom money can be squeezed. It's mostly homeless people doing that, but the whole raison d'être of SA's downtown is emptying the pockets of easily impressed vacationers. I've seriously considered getting a t-shirt that says "Not A Tourist - I Live In This Hellhole." Last time I was on the Riverwalk, I only walked about a block before the stench of sewage drove me back up to street level.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

I’ll go even further, and point out that you’re just wrong…

Nope, you're mistaken. UM is generally ranked higher across rankings and disciplines, undergrad and grad, reputation and scholarship.

Instead of spending all this time bizarrely diving into 1980's-era rankings for schools I never even mentioned, re-read my comments. USNWR is one ranking, and not a proxy for all rankings, or disciplines, or undergrad/grad. UVA and UNC aren't even relevant (and I'm confident UM is ranked higher than those two too).

Just looking at USNWR Michigan is ranked higher in basically everything, BTW. MBA, law, medicine, engineering, CS, hard sciences, social sciences, undergrad, etc. The same will generally be true with the other methodologies. There might be one or two exceptions, but UM is consistently higher.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I actually agree with this - especially now that Downtown Detroit is really coming to it's own. Michigan offers a great quality of life with good incomes, affordable real estate, and very low traffic congestion meaning absolutely excellent mobility. Plus Detroit gives access to all major sports teams, a relatively healthy and interesting downtown (which is rapidly improving too). The downtown isn't New York, and you aren't going to be living a transit-supported, urban lifestyle, but if that isn't super important to you, it's great.

The thing that keeps it cheap I think is the reputation Detroit has and it's weather.

They've got different strengths and weaknesses, but when it comes to overall vibrancy and urbanity I'm trying hard to pick a winner between downtown Detroit and downtown... Ottawa.

[Crawford]

Downtown Ottawa would obviously be a lot more vibrant/healthy than Downtown Detroit.

Whether "better", not sure. Detroit has more core historical fabric and cultural gravitas than any Canadian city, but less actual vibrancy and utility than any Canadian city.

But I don't think these are issues for the vast majority of families worldwide.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They've got different strengths and weaknesses, but when it comes to overall vibrancy and urbanity I'm trying hard to pick a winner between downtown Detroit and downtown... Ottawa.

Vibrancy, yes, probably. But look at all those buildings in Downtown Detroit. Imagine living in one of those. I'm an all-urban guy, but I'd take Detroit in this case.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by montréaliste

Detroit.

For as much as that city has declined, Detroit is about even with the darling Sun Belters in terms of quality of urban experience. People that move from Metro Detroit to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Austin, etc., are moving for jobs and weather. Those places don't have better urban experiences than Detroit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Downtown Ottawa would obviously be a lot more vibrant/healthy than Downtown Detroit.

Whether "better", not sure. Detroit has more core historical fabric and cultural gravitas than any Canadian city, but less actual vibrancy and utility than any Canadian city.

But I don't think these are issues for the vast majority of families worldwide.

I'm not sure I'd go this far. Sorry.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by montréaliste

Detroit.

I'm guessing this was a joke comment. But setting aside all the bad things that come with being a US city (wouldn't rank it high globally). Metro Detroit is a pretty fantastic place to live compared to most of the country. The state has fairly good benefits and protections, including in healthcare and education. It's still relatively affordable (home ownership isn't just a pipe dream). Some of the worlds best public universities are here. Tons of things to do and great outdoor recreation within driving distance, thousands of inland lakes. There's good traditional white collar jobs where your middle class lifestyle is secure. Unions are strong so blue collar folks have it pretty good too if you're in the right place. Traffic isn't TOO bad. Tons of cultural amenities, the food scene is great.

I have pretty much everything I want here. Transit is obviously shit. But lets be real basically no Americans care about that. They wanna drive a car. And the urbanism isn't exactly Chicago. But Detroit has made huge improvements to urban living and it's walkable offerings (including in the suburbs) which are only getting better.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

For as much as that city has declined, Detroit is about even with the darling Sun Belters in terms of quality of urban experience. People that move from Metro Detroit to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Austin, etc., are moving for jobs and weather. Those places don't have better urban experiences than Detroit.

It's definitely not even. It's clearly still way better in Detroit than any Sunbelt city. Downtown Houston compared to Downtown Detroit is a night and day difference in vibrancy. And no places like Midtown or Corktown or any of the intact neighborhoods exist in the sunbelt. Honestly even no places like Royal Oak or Birmingham exist in the sunbelt.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'm not sure I'd go this far. Sorry.

I don't think it's particularly close. Detroit was easily twice the size of any Canadian city, and has legacy instructions befitting that era. Detroit was much larger and more important than Toronto or Montreal. The art museum, the symphony, the theaters all reflect this era.

And it almost certainly has the third greatest collection of prewar highrises on earth.

Granted, this is all irrelevant to 99% of people on globe.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They've got different strengths and weaknesses, but when it comes to overall vibrancy and urbanity I'm trying hard to pick a winner between downtown Detroit and downtown... Ottawa.

Depends on what you want out of it - coming from someone who has spent a decent amount of time in both cities. Ottawa is definitely more transit supportive and would be supportive of a more traditional "urban" lifestyle with low car use, etc. - but Detroit in many ways offers far more cultural events - major concerts, sports teams, etc. - and all major sports teams are actually downtown for Detroit, unlike Ottawa.

The food scene in both Cities is probably relatively comparable as well, if Detroit doesn't actually pull ahead, albeit slightly.

It depends what you want out of it, I guess. Personally I would take Detroit - especially once you consider how much warmer Detroit is. But I also really like driving and transit access isn't something I rank highly on my priorities.

I don't think that's an insult to Ottawa either, remembering that Detroit has roughly triple the metro population, and serves as the major city centre for a population probably 6 times that which Ottawa serves.