When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Docere

Toronto to Montreal 542 km

London to Paris 475 km

There's also a giant channel in between the latter, unless we consider Ottawa/Kingston/Peterborough to be equivalent.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I disagree about China, because Shanghai and Beijing feel pretty drastically different. Let alone Hong Kong – it really doesn't feel like anywhere in mainland China. Even Macau feels very different.

That was the reason for my caveat about Hong Kong having just recently become a Chinese city. It didn't grow into its present form under the auspices of China.

Point taken about Beijing-Shanghai, though. I haven't travelled in China at all, my impressions are second hand. And maybe I should back track claims about India, not having been there either. India is an incredibly diverse place, unlike China, so it probably stands to reason that there would be more urban diversity there.

Are Mumbai and Kolkata wildly different in look and style? I've heard of cultural differences, but my impression is that they exist more in the rarefied strata of people with money than on the ground for the vast majority of the residents.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Today Airbus just announced a large expansion of it's Canadian production which will add 800 jobs, 700 of which will be in Montreal. This is why Montreal will continue to flourish.
Calgary has little mass manufacturing but that is due to it's heavy corporate headquarters and most manufacturing/production facilities in Alberta are located in Edmonton while Vancouver has neither.

Vancouver has never been a head office city but it also has almost no manufacturing and this will continue as the price of land is so high that it doesn't make sense for any manufacturer to even if they want to because the cost of land is astronomical and even providing a decent wage they still couldn't get the workers because a decent wage in Vancouver still lands you solidly into poverty. Vancouverites will use it's isolation as an excuse but it sure hasn't slowed down Seattle's large head offices and manufacturing base ie Boeing.

Why then did you move to Vancouver and what keeps you from moving away to somewhere you praise? The question you and the Halifax guy who also holds himself hostage in Vancouver never have answered.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Docere

London to Paris 475 km

Last I checked London and Paris were in different countries.

I suppose I should add Barcelona-Madrid to the yin-yang metric here. Certainly any Spaniard would be the first to pipe up that they're chalk and cheese.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Granted, most of that is due to the backdrop of the two solitudes, but still. And I can't think of much when it comes two cities within a single country (outside of the U.S., obviously) feeling so incredibly different, either. Is there any comparable domestic disparity other than, perhaps, that between Naples and Milan?

Where else do you have a divergence like the Montreal-Toronto spectrum? Not Melbourne to Sydney. Nothing in any European country, save, in my estimation, for Italy. Nothing in Russia. Nothing in China, except maybe Hong Kong to Beijing, though they've only been in the same country for twenty-five years. Nothing in Japan. Or India, from what I can tell.

Lviv to Mariupol is much more drastic than Montreal-Toronto, though you could argue it's not a fair example.

[SignalHillHiker]

Even in little countries, Bihac to Trebinje might as well be opposite sides of the world. Bilbao to Malaga. Etc.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

Toronto to Montreal 542 km

London to Paris 475 km

One has highspeed rail connecting the two, the other has Via

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by rousseau

This mirrors my own impression exactly. You've captured the two places here.

The differences between Toronto and Montreal really are quite something. They're just five hours from each other, but look and feel wildly disparate. You don't get this in the U.S. on a five-hour axis, for example. Boston to Washington, Pittsburgh to Indianapolis, Chicago to St. Louis, etc. don't have anywhere near the degree of difference that exists between Toronto ansd Montreal.

Granted, most of that is due to the backdrop of the two solitudes, but still. And I can't think of much when it comes two cities within a single country (outside of the U.S., obviously) feeling so incredibly different, either. Is there any comparable domestic disparity other than, perhaps, that between Naples and Milan?

Where else do you have a divergence like the Montreal-Toronto spectrum? Not Melbourne to Sydney. Nothing in any European country, save, in my estimation, for Italy. Nothing in Russia. Nothing in China, except maybe Hong Kong to Beijing, though they've only been in the same country for twenty-five years. Nothing in Japan. Or India, from what I can tell.

Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are radically different from each other at a distance of less than 100km.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by rousseau

That was the reason for my caveat about Hong Kong having just recently become a Chinese city. It didn't grow into its present form under the auspices of China.

Point taken about Beijing-Shanghai, though. I haven't travelled in China at all, my impressions are second hand. And maybe I should back track claims about India, not having been there either. India is an incredibly diverse place, unlike China, so it probably stands to reason that there would be more urban diversity there.

Are Mumbai and Kolkata wildly different in look and style? I've heard of cultural differences, but my impression is that they exist more in the rarefied strata of people with money than on the ground for the vast majority of the residents.

I've only been to Delhi, but from what I've seen of Mumbai and Kolkata, they are indeed very, very different. Different languages, different indigenous and colonial histories, etc.

China isn't exactly homogenous. There's a lot of cultural and linguistic variation, even if there is a certain official way of doing things imposed from above.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are radically different from each other at a distance of less than 100km.

In the possible solution where Israel and Palestine merge into a single state, Tel-Aviv to Gaza would be one of the world's most drastic contrasts.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's a place where the exact same guy can do the Rabbi Jacob dance from a Louis de Funès movie, but also watch the Super Bowl and know the rules and teams involves.

Actually, it's the only place in the world where you'll find a non-negligible amount of people who can do that.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Wigs

One has highspeed rail connecting the two, the other has Via

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Actually, it's the only place in the world where you'll find a non-negligible amount of people who can do that.

But... can you do the dance?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Last I checked London and Paris were in different countries.

I suppose I should add Barcelona-Madrid to the yin-yang metric here. Certainly any Spaniard would be the first to pipe up that they're chalk and cheese.

Or not in some cases, as it's common for many Spaniards to deny the uniqueness and legitimacy of the Catalan language and culture, and by extension the independence movement.

I'd say that Barcelona while not being identical to Madrid feels more like a Spanish city than Montreal feels like a CanadiAn city.

Catalan is quite predominant on signs everywhere but in terms of spoken language the differences between it and Spanish (Castellano) are quite subtle to the untrained ear.
oLinguistically, Barcelona is noticeably less Catalan than Montreal is French.

A person who speaks only Castellano doesn't have tons of conversations around them that they can't understand, like a unilingual anglo does in Montreal.

In terms of the look of the city Barcelona does have its own style but again is not that huge clash with what you see in Madrid. Barcelona buildings tend to be darker in colour whereas in Madrid lighter colours predominate. Architecture in Barcelona obviously tends to be more whimsical and adventurous (not just due to Gaudi) whereas in Madrid the style is more "regal".

[MolsonExport]

As a recent visitor to Barcelona, the hostility of Catalans to Spain and to the Spanish language is at a far higher level than their analogues in Quebec/Canada.

I had several dinners with Catalan academics, and there were very spirited, unanimous round-table discussions about the repression of the Catalan language/culture, which seemed to be far more recent and of a much greater magnitude than that experienced by Quebec vis a vis Canada (although this may not apply with respect to Francophones outside of Quebec, but then this is also the lot experienced by the Anglos in Quebec, contrary to what many may say here).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

As a recent visitor to Barcelona, the hostility of Catalans to Spain and to the Spanish language is at a far higher level than their analogues in Quebec/Canada.

I had several dinners with Catalan academics, and there were very spirited, unanimous round-table discussions about the repression of the Catalan language/culture, which seemed to be far more recent and of a much greater magnitude than that experienced by Quebec vis a vis Canada (although this may not apply with respect to Francophones outside of Quebec, but then this is also the lot experienced by the Anglos in Quebec, contrary to what many may say here).

The Catalans' dashboard readings in terms of demographics, langage vitality, political weight, etc. all seem to be less favourable than Quebec's. Though what looks to be happening is the nationalists-separatists are falling back into a small but still appreciable minority that is increasingly bitter and hyper-militant.

Part of it is probably due to the repression by Madrid of the recent independence push by Carles Puigdemont and company, which was almost shockingly brutal for a western democracy.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Last I checked London and Paris were in different countries.

I suppose I should add Barcelona-Madrid to the yin-yang metric here. Certainly any Spaniard would be the first to pipe up that they're chalk and cheese.

I've driven between the two and the emptying out of rural Spain is quite evident on the drive.

[lio45]

One factor is mutual intelligibility. Catalan and Castillan are much closer than French and English.

My Anglo gf was always a bit isolated at family parties. Imagine an unilingual Anglo coworker in a typical Quebec firm: that person would be left out EVEN if everyone's reasonably open-minded and accommodating, no way around that.

Catalan speakers can be "repressed" into using Castillan instead, much more easily than unilingual Francophones can be "repressed" into becoming fluent English speakers overnight. So the threat to the language is even more real.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

One factor is mutual intelligibility. Catalan and Castillan are much closer than French and English.

My Anglo gf was always a bit isolated at family parties. .

And in that sense, if the entire family (assuming they could) had switched the main language of family gatherings over to English just for her, then she would have been - wittingly or not - an "enemy of French" in Quebec.

This isn't that common in Quebec, but it's par for the course in most francophone families outside Quebec. Such as my extended family in fact.

Which is why French often dies out in most of these families within a generation or two of even a single anglophone (or maybe two) marrying into them.

The person in question doesn't even have to be hostile to French and may indeed be fairly open-minded.

But if they don't actually show a keen interest in learning and using it (and also that francophones in the family support them), the end result for French is almost always fatal.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And in that sense, if the entire family (assuming they could) had switched the main language of family gatherings over to English just for her, then she would have been - wittingly or not - an "enemy of French" in Quebec.

This is exactly what happened: everyone who spoke at least some English would switch.

An even more extreme real-life example happened in my group of physicist friends: one of them brought back an American girlfriend eventually (after doing a postdoc there), brought her to Montreal, and in our gatherings during the time he was dating her, the conversations would be almost always all in English, just for her.

(One of the reasons he ended up dumping her was that he found she wasn't putting much effort into learning the language that would make her stop being an outsider to his family, as they weren't as good with English as we (his friends) were.)

It's reasonable -- if I moved to Poland right now and got in a relationship with a Polish girl, maybe after a year or two when it becomes obvious I'll never have a normal two-way intelligibility relationship with her family because I'm just not learning Polish, she'll prefer to find another person to have kids with and stay with. I would totally understand that.