Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Those two examples are of local residents concerned with new out-of-scale developments

At some point, the houses lived in by "local residents" were also "out of scale"....

that will ruin the character of their area.

I would love to see one example of an area whose "character" has been "ruined" by investment coming into it and renovations or re-adaptations being inflicted on previously existing buildings or empty lots.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Other than architectural heritage, what's the public policy goal in "preserving the character" of any given neighbourhood?

I agree with that.

Plus much of the “character” of these neighbourhoods (frankly retirement communities) is fairly recent. These used to be much more vibrant communities with much more population density than they have now.

[roger1818]

There seems to be a lot of assumptions in this forum as to why people live in rural (not suburban) communities and commute to Ottawa, and I am not convinced they are correct in most cases. I know it is anecdotal, but here is one example of why it can happen:

A company I am familiar with had an office in Carleton Place which employed hundreds of people (maybe even a thousand, I am not sure). These are good paying jobs for skilled labour. Most employees lived in or near Carleton Place with some within walking distance.

A couple years ago the company decided to consolidate offices and moved to Kanata. While some employees (especially the younger ones who didn't have roots established) moved to Kanata or Stittsville and some decided to find other employment (or retire), most decided to commute to the new location and I don't blame them. There is no way Carleton Place could suddenly absorb such a large influx of new hires if they wanted to find new employment and as for moving, most owned homes, had kids in local schools, partners who worked locally and friends and family nearby. Even if they all wanted to move, the real-estate market wouldn't be able to absorb the huge influx of new houses for sale. Obviously most were not happy with the relocation, but the feasible alternatives available to them were limited. Now gradually, the employee base will move closer as people change jobs, retire or move, but this will take many, many years (likely well over a decade).

There was a proposal to run a corporate commuter bus to the office, but there wasn't enough demand, so it never happened.

As I said, this is just one example, and it wasn't to downtown Ottawa, but it is a good illustration of what can happen.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

There seems to be a lot of assumptions in this forum as to why people live in rural (not suburban) communities and commute to Ottawa, and I am not convinced they are correct in most cases. I know it is anecdotal, but here is one example of why it can happen:

A company I am familiar with had an office in Carleton Place which employed hundreds of people (maybe even a thousand, I am not sure). These are good paying jobs for skilled labour. Most employees lived in or near Carleton Place with some within walking distance.

A couple years ago the company decided to consolidate offices and moved to Kanata. While some employees (especially the younger ones who didn't have roots established) moved to Kanata or Stittsville and some decided to find other employment (or retire), most decided to commute to the new location and I don't blame them. There is no way Carleton Place could suddenly absorb such a large influx of new hires if they wanted to find new employment and as for moving, most owned homes, had kids in local schools, partners who worked locally and friends and family nearby. Even if they all wanted to move, the real-estate market wouldn't be able to absorb the huge influx of new houses for sale. Obviously most were not happy with the relocation, but the feasible alternatives available to them were limited. Now gradually, the employee base will move closer as people change jobs, retire or move, but this will take many, many years (likely well over a decade).

There was a proposal to run a corporate commuter bus to the office, but there wasn't enough demand, so it never happened.

As I said, this is just one example, and it wasn't to downtown Ottawa, but it is a good illustration of what can happen.

That’s a pretty specific case. These subdivisions cropping up in places like Kempville, Arnprior and Russel do not appear to be targeting workers at local companies. Certainly their marketing is aimed at Ottawa commuters.

[Ottawa Champ]

My OC bus was directly behind a Township of Russell bus this morning. The rear of the Russell bus had a large decal reading "Township of Russell 20 MIN from Ottawa"

This begs the question, 20 minutes from where exactly in Ottawa? Driving or on public transit? Public transit would certainly not be 20 mins. Definitely more than 20 mins driving from downtown Ottawa but it is less than a 20 minute drive from Metcalfe which is considered to be Ottawa. Other variables include time of day, weather conditions, etc.

My point being is that these claims of x minutes to/from a destination are meaningless when presented without context and nearly always underestimated. A minor pet peeve.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That’s a pretty specific case. These subdivisions cropping up in places like Kempville, Arnprior and Russel do not appear to be targeting workers at local companies. Certainly their marketing is aimed at Ottawa commuters.

I agree it is a pretty specific case (I even said, "this is just one example"), but I would argue it isn't insignificant. I would love to see some statistics about how many people move to "Kempville, Arnprior and Russel" with the intention of commuting to downtown Ottawa to see how big a problem it is. IMHO, if they are planning to commute to Ottawa, it is likely to Orleans, Barrhaven and Kanata as few people enjoy wasting the required 2-3 hours for the required round trip commute to downtown (when you take traffic into account).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

There seems to be a lot of assumptions in this forum as to why people live in rural (not suburban) communities and commute to Ottawa, and I am not convinced they are correct in most cases. I know it is anecdotal, but here is one example of why it can happen:

A company I am familiar with had an office in Carleton Place which employed hundreds of people (maybe even a thousand, I am not sure). These are good paying jobs for skilled labour. Most employees lived in or near Carleton Place with some within walking distance.

A couple years ago the company decided to consolidate offices and moved to Kanata. While some employees (especially the younger ones who didn't have roots established) moved to Kanata or Stittsville and some decided to find other employment (or retire), most decided to commute to the new location and I don't blame them. There is no way Carleton Place could suddenly absorb such a large influx of new hires if they wanted to find new employment and as for moving, most owned homes, had kids in local schools, partners who worked locally and friends and family nearby. Even if they all wanted to move, the real-estate market wouldn't be able to absorb the huge influx of new houses for sale. Obviously most were not happy with the relocation, but the feasible alternatives available to them were limited. Now gradually, the employee base will move closer as people change jobs, retire or move, but this will take many, many years (likely well over a decade).

There was a proposal to run a corporate commuter bus to the office, but there wasn't enough demand, so it never happened.

As I said, this is just one example, and it wasn't to downtown Ottawa, but it is a good illustration of what can happen.

This is a reasonable explanation of many realities when employment moves between locations whether its this specific example or others where jobs move to downtown, out of downtown, or to different locations in the greater Ottawa area or any city for that matter. It would also apply to families changing jobs.

People may change jobs more frequently than in the past but most people still do not want to move. This can be very traumatic to a family and there are considerable costs involved in moving and in most cases, the employer will not pay those expenses unless the move is to a different city.

Again, may I suggest a new thread.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Ottawa Champ

My OC bus was directly behind a Township of Russell bus this morning. The rear of the Russell bus had a large decal reading "Township of Russell 20 MIN from Ottawa"

This begs the question, 20 minutes from where exactly in Ottawa? Driving or on public transit? Public transit would certainly not be 20 mins. Definitely more than 20 mins driving from downtown Ottawa but it is less than a 20 minute drive from Metcalfe which is considered to be Ottawa. Other variables include time of day, weather conditions, etc.

My point being is that these claims of x minutes to/from a destination are meaningless when presented without context and nearly always underestimated. A minor pet peeve.

That is very misleading. If you look at the "Russel Transpo" schedule, one of the buses (Option 3 Express) is 21 min. from the "Vars Park & Ride (417)" to St-Laurent Station. I'm not sure if that P&R lot is technically in the Township of Russel or not (it is used by OC Transpo's route 222 and Google has its address in Ottawa).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is very misleading. If you look at the "Russel Transpo" schedule, one of the buses (Option 3 Express) is 21 min. from the "Vars Park & Ride (417)" to St-Laurent Station. I'm not sure if that P&R lot is technically in the Township of Russel or not (it is used by OC Transpo's route 222 and Google has its address in Ottawa).

Areas on the north side of the Rockdale-417 interchange are in Ottawa, areas to the south of it are in Russell.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree it is a pretty specific case (I even said, "this is just one example"), but I would argue it isn't insignificant. I would love to see some statistics about how many people move to "Kempville, Arnprior and Russel" with the intention of commuting to downtown Ottawa to see how big a problem it is. IMHO, if they are planning to commute to Ottawa, it is likely to Orleans, Barrhaven and Kanata as few people enjoy wasting the required 2-3 hours for the required round trip commute to downtown (when you take traffic into account).

It is certainly unlikely to Orleans or Barrhaven as there are hardly any employers there. It might be to Kanata. But I am unclear why it matters to you whether they go all the way downtown or not. The point people are making is still the same that Ottawa taxpayers should not be subsidizing these commutes with more roads or more bus services (back on topic).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is certainly unlikely to Orleans or Barrhaven as there are hardly any employers there. It might be to Kanata. But I am unclear why it matters to you whether they go all the way downtown or not. The point people are making is still the same that Ottawa taxpayers should not be subsidizing these commutes with more roads or more bus services (back on topic).

You are right, but the roads aspect of this comment was previously addressed with provincial funding. When the Mike Harris government downloaded much of the provincial highway network in 1998, this has created a complication. In the case of Ottawa, this most negatively affected the east half of the city when both Highway 17 and Highway 31 were downloaded. We have already seen the challenge with respect to traffic issues on both corridors.

Better cross jurisdictional roads and transit are not necessarily bad things. They help both rural and urban residents. We don't live on islands. Our lives are interconnected. In Toronto, transit is addressed by GO Transit. At some point, we need to consider a similar agency to curtail traffic from satellite towns.

Perhaps, these things need to be turned back to our MLAs to put some pressure on them for extra provincial funding so that urban residents are not forced to subsidize these cross jurisdictional services.

[waterloowarrior]

Lrt's friend created a new thread for this suburban/exurban discussion.... will move some posts there later

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...82#post8398682

Some news from the Russell Council meeting - they are going to meet with Rockland and try to negotiate with the City. Also there are discussions with Amazon and the City about increasing service along the 417 - could be implications for more park and riders from Russell/Carlsbad Springs as well.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Lrt's friend created a new thread for this suburban/exurban discussion.... will move some posts there later

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...82#post8398682

Some news from the Russell Council meeting - they are going to meet with Rockland and try to negotiate with the City. Also there are discussions with Amazon and the City about increasing service along the 417 - could be implications for more park and riders from Russell/Carlsbad Springs as well.

Thank you, and the Amazon project is going to create reverse commuters. Since most jobs are not high paying, many will need transit. In time, there will also be increased demand for housing out there.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Areas on the north side of the Rockdale-417 interchange are in Ottawa, areas to the south of it are in Russell.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is very misleading. If you look at the "Russel Transpo" schedule, one of the buses (Option 3 Express) is 21 min. from the "Vars Park & Ride (417)" to St-Laurent Station. I'm not sure if that P&R lot is technically in the Township of Russel or not (it is used by OC Transpo's route 222 and Google has its address in Ottawa).

The Vars Park & Ride lot is located in the Township of Russell; immediately south of the municipal border (it runs in a straight line that lines up with Burton-St.Pierre before they curve to intersect with St-Guillaume/Rockdale).

Interestingly, because the Vars Park & Ride lot served by OC Transpo Route 222 is within the Township of Russell, OC Transpo technically already provides service to Russell Township.

CPTDB actually makes note of this:

OC Transpo is the urban transit service of the City of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Some routes provide service to the downtown core of the nearby city of Gatineau, Quebec, mostly during peak periods and one route provides service to the Township of Russell, Ontario to serve the Vars Park & Ride, only during peak periods.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Otta...sit_Commission

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Lrt's friend created a new thread for this suburban/exurban discussion.... will move some posts there later

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...82#post8398682

Some news from the Russell Council meeting - they are going to meet with Rockland and try to negotiate with the City. Also there are discussions with Amazon and the City about increasing service along the 417 - could be implications for more park and riders from Russell/Carlsbad Springs as well.

I really don’t see how these issues can be discussed separately. One’s view on whether Ottawa should be providing highly discounted transit to exurban and rural commuters depends on one’s view of exurban commuting. If anything this thread should be renamed “exurban transportation issues”

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The Vars Park & Ride lot is located in the Township of Russell; immediately south of the municipal border (it runs in a straight line that lines up with Burton-St.Pierre before they curve to intersect with St-Guillaume/Rockdale).

Interestingly, because the Vars Park & Ride lot served by OC Transpo Route 222 is within the Township of Russell, OC Transpo technically already provides service to Russell Township.

CPTDB actually makes note of this:


https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Otta...sit_Commission

The Park n Ride is an extremely short distance from the interchange which was going to be used anyway. If it makes the service more financially viable by allowing more passengers to use it, then I support it. It is very difficult to distinguish between Ottawa residents and those from outside municipalities either here or any other Park n Ride on the periphery of the city.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I really don’t see how these issues can be discussed separately. One’s view on whether Ottawa should be providing highly discounted transit to exurban and rural commuters depends on one’s view of exurban commuting. If anything this thread should be renamed “exurban transportation issues”

I think you are expecting perfect separation at cross-jurisdictional boundaries which is not possible. Do you think that TTC buses on Steeles Avenue require proof of residence to prove that they are Toronto taxpayers in order to board the bus?

We can extend this further by eliminating free transfers between STO and OC because riders are being subsidized by the other municipality.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think you are expecting perfect separation at cross-jurisdictional boundaries which is not possible. Do you think that TTC buses on Steeles Avenue require proof of residence to prove that they are Toronto taxpayers in order to board the bus?
.

For monthly passes (which provide the most discounted way to ride the system), they would require proof of residence in the City of Toronto, would they not?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For monthly passes (which provide the most discounted way to ride the system), they would require proof of residence in the City of Toronto, would they not?

That is a good question. Can somebody answer that?

(edit) I just read the TTC monthly pass rules. There is no residency requirement mentioned. I don't believe they exist for OC Transpo either.

Regarding subsidies, there is a value in getting the furthest commuters off the roads. So, either we pay subsidies for transit or for road use.

As I said before, eliminating subsidies can never be perfect. We can waste a lot of money on trying to charge extra to non-residents for little long-term benefit.

But think, what about tourists? Do we want to charge tourists double to eliminate a subsidy? I think we have to be very careful before we go down that path.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That is a good question. Can somebody answer that?

(edit) I just read the TTC monthly pass rules. There is no residency requirement mentioned. I don't believe they exist for OC Transpo either.
.

That's interesting. I guess STO are a bit fussy about this.