Urban Design in Edmonton

[feepa]

^ the obvious solution is micro-suites.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by feepa

^ the obvious solution is micro-suites.

you do know that some of the jurisdictions in the world that pioneered "micro-suites" is moving towards not permitting any more and looking at ways to reduce the current number (i.e. by combining adjacent ones into spaces that are actually more liveable and more neighborly than the uses to which they are currently being used for)?

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by kcantor

you do know that some of the jurisdictions in the world that pioneered "micro-suites" is moving towards not permitting any more and looking at ways to reduce the current number (i.e. by combining adjacent ones into spaces that are actually more liveable and more neighborly than the uses to which they are currently being used for)?

"than the uses to which they are currently being used for)" does this mean no one is living in them or being rented out by the hour or???

[feepa]

Originally Posted by kcantor

you do know that some of the jurisdictions in the world that pioneered "micro-suites" is moving towards not permitting any more and looking at ways to reduce the current number (i.e. by combining adjacent ones into spaces that are actually more liveable and more neighborly than the uses to which they are currently being used for)?

I did not know, I also don't see why anyone in Edmonton would want them, especially when the price point for these micro-suites matches what you can get for 800-1000sqft in a similar location.
I lived in a 1bdrm with about 550 sqft... was pretty cramped at that. I guess I just don't see the appeal of anything smaller than that.
Obviously my first post was in jest of those that think Edmonton has a need or demand for micro-suites.

[240glt]

^ lived in 450 sf 1 bed in Vancouver for a couple of months prior to moving to Calgary

Even being young and having practically no stuff I found the space way too small. But options were limited at the time.

My 650 SF 1 bed apartment in Calgary was just the right size for a young person with relatively few possessions

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

"than the uses to which they are currently being used for)" does this mean no one is living in them or being rented out by the hour or???

both "by the hour" as well as virtual airb&b hotel use as well as for family and roommate use with upwards of half a dozen living in the spaces. both sets of circumstances are problematic not just from a morality/compatibility perspective but from the perspective of increased traffic and congestion taxing both building systems not designed for those kinds of loads and connecting municipal infrastructure not designed for those kinds of loads either.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by kcantor

both "by the hour" as well as virtual airb&b hotel use as well as for family and roommate use with upwards of half a dozen living in the spaces. both sets of circumstances are problematic not just from a morality/compatibility perspective but from the perspective of increased traffic and congestion taxing both building systems not designed for those kinds of loads and connecting municipal infrastructure not designed for those kinds of loads either.

Hopefully the City will have guidelines and bylaws for airb&b and others of its ilk soon. Most don't offer the second "b" anyway - so its more a room and thats it...or a house..

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by noodlenoodle

The thing is, I enjoy living centrally, despite the numerous little paper cut issues that raise my hackles. Am I looking forward to moving out of the core neighborhoods? Heck yeah, but no rush.

I just think that we can get a better return on investment & benefit more Edmontonians if we "skate where the puck is going", which, despite the best concerted efforts of some amazing people & projects, is increasingly the suburbs. Hence the ring road & amenities far, far away from Downtown. Because that's where the people are.

I don't know what the answer is to Edmonton's unsustainable sprawl problems, but trying to change the opinions of the general public by throwing money at Downtown hasn't done the job so far. By my back of the envelope calculations, the new multi-family buildings in the core should, when occupied, get Downtown growing on-pace with the suburbs for the next census cycle. Not reversing the trend, merely not falling further behind.

(Too bad CMHC is forecasting a dearth of multi-family building starts in 2017-18, or they might have reversed it, at least for the next census cycle)

Thank you, I feel I understand you and your position much better now. I don't necessarily agree with it, but this at least is your best expression yet of your feelings and objections.

I think public investment is an important part of the mix and has had a hugely positive impact on how people not only perceive downtown, but by extension the entire city as a whole.

The thing about downtown vs. the suburbs is the centrality of it. If the city moved it's thousands of employees to Ambleside, the AGA to a brownfield on St. Albert Trail, if the province built the new RAM in Leduc, or the agreement to build the arena landed it on Winterburn Road, that's not really equitable to those who don't live in those areas, and puts pressure unevenly on roadway infrastructure for others to get to those places (to say nothing of land wasted providing parking in those places).

Downtown - despite perceptions of traffic issues (and if you've ever traveled to any other similarly-sized or bigger cities you'd know we do not have traffic issues yet) - is as close to equidistant from all corners of the city as possible. It's where transit is focused and made the most efficient. It's where cycling infrastructure as transportation provides the best investment value. And it's where visitors to our city will often find themselves looking for things to do; driving around to a bunch of destinations on the edges of the city is not.

We can "skate where the puck is going" but if the puck is going toward the wrong goal (or toward no discernible goal at all), we should probably turn it around first. You admit yourself that you don't know what the answer to unsustainable suburban sprawl is, but don't seem to want to acknowledge that a growing downtown core is a big part of that equation. Part of the problem we have is that we lost focus on it for so long, and we're still fighting to give it momentum.

Maybe in another 10 years that momentum will be able to sustain itself, but I'm not convinced we're there yet, and I'm not convinced that abandoning our focus on downtown in favour of "what people want" (without consideration for the considerable negative aspects those wants bring with them) will take this city forwards; rather, I think it would take us backwards quite a lot.

[Coldrsx]

This micro-suite/small unit conversation is certainly interesting. While I do not disagree about the practicality of smaller units for many, they are very much in demand and needed for some. Whether for rent or purchase, we definitely need a broader variety of housing options, especially in the core. We have 770sqft for 2 and it is more than enough space and I have lived in 500 in Van which was plenty given its prime location and walkable/transitable amenities. When I visited HK we had a 780sqft 3 bedroom 2 bath which had little storage, but was incredibly efficient and perfectly livable long-term.

The important piece of this is neighbourhood amenity level, good transit and walkability and efficient designs.

Far more people than you think would live in under 500sqft if in great locations with the above. Look at Cambridge lofts for example.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Daveography

Maybe in another 10 years that momentum will be able to sustain itself, but I'm not convinced we're there yet, and I'm not convinced that abandoning our focus on downtown in favour of "what people want" (without consideration for the considerable negative aspects those wants bring with them) will take this city backwards, not forwards.

What worries me is that this is what we're aiming for:


And our inability to stop 'progress' will lead to:

[feepa]

^ that last image looks like a wet dream of some forumers here. (Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers)

[Coldrsx]

Yeah, not quite hombre. I like towers, but don't take that reference as towers or nothing! Quite the opposite actually.

[Black Star]

^^Gawd...enough with the unwarranted cheap shots.


If you have issues deal with them on someones couch.

[feepa]

I'm not of spanish origin, not sure if you knew that.

I dont think micro-suites have much of a demand or purpose here at all in Edmonton, especially when the costs are the same as something a little larger (see more reasonable).

In tight markets where space is at a premium - yes, definitely see a demand.

Awaiting your reply, chap.

[Coldrsx]

Micro suites here are call it 500 or less, versus say 200-400 in other cities and certainly are in demand and exist today. Location versus price versus age versus etc. etc. etc. all come into play and while you might get something a bit bigger for about the same, perhaps that location is a few blocks too far. Always a balance and consideration, but I would love to see tower 1 of Healy site go as planned with the majority of the units being dorm style or micro. Same thing with the YMCA site and I would love to see Chancery Hall converted into a ton of small units. They are as important, perhaps more so even, than 3bdrms. Younger demos typically want to be very central and this would allow more to be while providing them access to things sans car or even bus potentially.

Pied a terries also are popular for those from out of town.

[noodlenoodle]

The thing is the other cities where they're in demand have orders of magnitude more density & several times more expensive land costs. You're once again attempting to lift something you've seen in a magazine, or on a trip, or on a blog, or wherever into Edmonton without considering the differences between places.

There's places giving 25-50% more space than the Crawford Block for the same money within a block or two. Unless you're a quadriplegic regular of El Cortez, the "location, location, location" bit rapidly changes to another maxim "a fool and their money are soon parted", broski.

[Coldrsx]

Again, options are good... how about we try that.

[noodlenoodle]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Again, options are good... how about we try that.

Except the options that people in Edmonton predominantly want, which is the suburban model, are constantly pushed as definitely not good by you and the other urban-uber-alles bunch. And providing the antithesis of that, at an elevated price, doesn't seem like a gameplan for success. I'm no developer though.

If we need to look anywhere it's to smaller cities & towns, the other built-up-but-still-less-dense areas & see how they are maximizing the potential of the hand they were dealt. Picking stuff from Tokyo or Paris or New York or Seattle or Sydney or wherever else doesn't really fit with the circumstances here.

[McBoo]

We'll see, but gotta admit, my eyes popped at this for the Crawford Block:

STARTING FROM $1125/MONTH

I mean, checking Kijiji, you get a 700 sq ft one bedroom for that and a 12 pack in Hillside Estates.

You can get a micro on 104 just north of Jasper (can't remember the building's name) for $750, and the For Rent sign has been up a long time.

Maybe being in the alley will help, who knows, but from experience having lived both just off and right on Whyte - the vibe wears a mite thin when you begin suffering from sleep deprivation.

[mcc16]

you are endlessly complaining about perceived anti suburban views while being completely intolerant to any comments portraying downtown or urban living options as positive. Again, if you don't think 3 bedroom units, or micro units, or family friendly units are not necessary then don't rent/purchase one and your life will go on. If a developer wants to try introducing any of these options to the market then we will see the reaction and demand for it. One angry guy/girl at a computer does not a city make. Maybe just maybe consider that others could possibly be capable of having a different view point. As mentioned, Cambridge is an example of smaller units (if not quite "micro"). It is in very high demand. Units rent very fast for prices I find quite high for the space your getting and lack of parking. Units also sell very fast if they are priced right. This building seems to be a perfect example of everything you think is wrong with downtown yet hundreds of people call it home and there is consistent demand to get into this building... And I don't understand the mentality of complaining about the amount of money spent on downtown...surely there must be a way to get some kind of per capita cost related to how many people (commercial/retail/res/tourist) benefit from these dollars spent.