Place d'Orleans: potential redevelopment?

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is no equivalent to PdO on the West side. All Western suburbs basically share Bayshore.

*And Carlingwood, which is still a major mall, although it's prospects are dim without Sears

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is no equivalent to PdO on the West side. All Western suburbs basically share Bayshore.

This is correct.

And the east end also has St-Laurent which rivals Place d'Orléans. There is no equivalent to this in the west end - Carlingwood might have rivalled Bayshore at one point but those days are long gone.

Another thing is that when Place d'Orléans first started to stumble (maybe 15-years ago? I can't recall the exact time period), St-Laurent was actually strongly ascendent and rivalling Rideau and Bayshore.

(St-Laurent is very easily accessible from much of Orleans, by car or transit, and was historically the go-to mall for people in that area, before Place was mega-expanded.)

Ironically St-Laurent eventually began to stumble a bit itself, but not before it was able to deliver some body blows to Place d'Orléans.

So now the east end of Ottawa is left with two so-so megamalls, and of course the booming Trainyards...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by canadianinmichigan

The west end is not like the east end.

West end residents are happy to live, work, dine and shop in the west end and only travel downtown on occasion. Most west-enders I know rarely travel east of Bayshore.

East end residents usually work, dine and shop downtown.

This is quite true in my experience. Though less so than before as Orleans painstakingly slowly moves towards a bit more self-containment as a community. They have real bars (sort of) in Orleans now.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

*And Carlingwood, which is still a major mall, although it's prospects are dim without Sears

I'm not sure I would call it a "major mall" but even if it is, people from the Western suburbs looking for a mall would have to drive by Bayshore to get there.

PdO was expanded at the very end of the mall era when the mall was a huge hub. That era is gone and PdO is a regional-sized mall with too small of a catchment for the current era.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not sure I would call it a "major mall" but even if it is, people from the Western suburbs looking for a mall would have to drive by Bayshore to get there.

PdO was expanded at the very end of the mall era when the mall was a huge hub. That era is gone and PdO is a regional-sized mall with too small of a catchment for the current era.

Bayshore draws from a much wider area than Place d'Orléans.

All the way up the 417-17 towards Arnprior and beyond draws shoppers to Bayshore, as does down the 416 towards Kemptville, in addition to some people from the Quebec side across the Champlain Bridge.

Place d'Orléans mostly misses out on shoppers from the towns along the 417 East who go to St-Laurent or Rideau, and for people along the 17 (Rockland, Plantagenet, Hawkesbury) once you reach Orleans on the highway it's only 15 minutes more and you're at St-Laurent. So a chunk of them just drive right by Place. Plus if you go all the way to St-Laurent you can hit up Trainyards too in the same vicinity.

[ars]

Originally Posted by canadianinmichigan

It's really depressing what has happened to Place d'Orleans. I still fondly remember what it was like in it's golden years-it was truly the best mall in Ottawa and one of the best malls in Canada. The architecture was stunning if you really looked at it.

The mall was the hub of Orleans and a great meeting place. Believe it or not, the fountain was the center of the mall activity and the busiest corner of the mall. You actually used to struggle to find a parking space on a busy Saturday. It once had a Walmart, The Bay, Eatons, Loblaws, 2 restaurants and every storefront where Sport Check and Bay Home Store were built was occupied.

Four things happened that lead to the mall's decline:
1. Eatons bankruptcy. The Bay moved to Eatons and the mall was unable to secure a tenant for former space occupied by The Bay so management leased the space to RCMP.
2. Destruction of the 2nd floor by Sports Check and The Bay Home Store (Having to walk through a store to get to one side of the mall?? Huh?)
3. Closure of Walmart.
4. Competition from Innes Road & Rideau Centre revitalization.

The day management got rid of the fountain was the end of Place d'Orleans as we knew it.


I fear that Place is slowly turning into the Gloucester Centre. I am disappointed that the new wing with Marks was built like a big-box set up and new stores are being built outside in the parking lot instead of within the mall. These new stores are great but with this set up, the corridors of the mall will hardly enjoy an increase of foot traffic.


In my humble opinion, the age of the 20th century mall has passed and the whole mall should be demolished and redeveloped into an open-air lifestyle centre similar to Tanger or Lansdowne with mixed use development and a new grid-layout street system instead of ring roads. Champlain could go all the way to St. Joseph once again and put store frontage on St. Joseph- the historical main street of Orleans. With LRT coming to Orleans it makes sense to think of creating a walkable district adjacent to the station. A road diet on St. Joseph would also help.

Just a dream though. Keep voting for Bob Monette and putting up those Soviet towers surrounded by a sea of parking lots, Ottawa.

I think Walmart moving to Innes was a major nail in the coffin for PdO. I lived in Orleans from 1997 to 2006 and PdO was still quite healthy after Eatons closed down.

Walmart moving was a major blow to the mall and it's no coincidence that the Innes development has been booming ever since Walmart moved there. Zellers was not a suitable replacement and Target was done before it even started.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not sure I would call it a "major mall" but even if it is, people from the Western suburbs looking for a mall would have to drive by Bayshore to get there.

PdO was expanded at the very end of the mall era when the mall was a huge hub. That era is gone and PdO is a regional-sized mall with too small of a catchment for the current era.

Carlingwood's mall concourse is roughly the same size as St. Laurent. A huge chunk of St. Laurent's GLA is taken up by non-retail tenants, the retail mall itself is quite compact. At 525,000 sq ft. Carlingwood is certainly a 'major mall' but the loss of Sears will likely require a total redevelopment or the mall will fail, IMHO.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Carlingwood's mall concourse is roughly the same size as St. Laurent. A huge chunk of St. Laurent's GLA is taken up by non-retail tenants, the retail mall itself is quite compact. At 525,000 sq ft. Carlingwood is certainly a 'major mall' but the loss of Sears will likely require a total redevelopment or the mall will fail, IMHO.

That is about the same size of Billings Bridge (485). Also, sears was 179, so it is now down to 346. St. Laurent is still 685 without Sears.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That is about the same size of Billings Bridge (485). Also, sears was 179, so it is now down to 346. St. Laurent is still 685 without Sears.

No, it's really not. There are two colleges, the Caseware offices, a cinema, a Goodlife, and I think even the former local sears distribution centre under the store that are included in that GLA. I'd guess that St. Laurent's retail GLA without Sears is in the 400-450 range.

[Truenorth00]

St. Laurent, Gloucester Centre, Place D'Oreleans are all ripe for massive redevelopment.

What's going on with RioCan at Blair just seems so timid. You would think they could really do something bold to turn that into a real high density node. So much opportunity. I don't understand why the REITs that own these malls aren't getting more aggressive with redeveloping them.

[1overcosc]

I don't think RioCan actually owns the Gloucester Centre, just the land immediately to the west of it.

[canadianinmichigan]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

St. Laurent, Gloucester Centre, Place D'Oreleans are all ripe for massive redevelopment.

What's going on with RioCan at Blair just seems so timid. You would think they could really do something bold to turn that into a real high density node. So much opportunity. I don't understand why the REITs that own these malls aren't getting more aggressive with redeveloping them.

Agree. I think it's because the malls are still generating profits for the owners and there is less risk in just letting them slowly decline.

There is an opportunity to create a human-scale walkable neighborhood from scratch if we build a street grid on this land, include public gathering places that can be activated and go no higher than ~8 stories max. Else it will just become Less Station.

I like the idea of density but we do not need a group of 30 story towers to loom over a suburb. It is a fitting metaphor though- the image of old, crappy land use planning being cast into the darkness by new, even worse urban form.

This quackery and the fact that these abominations aren't exactly downtown reminds me of something you see in the Soviet Union or what one of those Chinese ghost cities would do to attract "investment". These things are a blight. Surrounded by sprawl and highways, these pitiful attempts at mimicry offer a living experience that has nothing in common with living in a dense urban core. Unless your idea of a dense urban core is a bunch of curvillinear road networks beside a bevy of strip malls and a freeway.

[canadianinmichigan]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is no equivalent to PdO on the West side. All Western suburbs basically share Bayshore.

Oh, I thought you meant retail in general including strip malls and not just traditional inside malls. East end does have Place, Gloucester Centre and St.Laurent.

[canadianinmichigan]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I also like that idea. And this new development could provide a good connection to the area around Shenkman that already feels (as much as it can in Orleans) a little like a downtown. Have a few taller buildings (30-40 floors) along the highway, close to LRT, with heights stepping down to 8-12 towards the current "town centre" and the St-Joseph main street corridor.

I only wish they would build PdO Station under Champlain as a more central location to this potential downtown area instead of the current plan of eventually adding a station only 500 meters away at the current "town centre".

That town centre project (I think it is actually called Orleans Centrum) was known as the Cumberland Civic Centre. The former Cumberland city hall is the building with the fountains. It's very difficult to walk there from most neighborhoods in Orleans and far from Orleans Station.... but OC Transpo forces the routes to take a detour down Centrum Blvd to make up for it.

There was a huge field between RBC and city hall and a large gravel lot at St. Joseph/Prestone for 30 years.

Fun fact-in the late 70s and 80s the cities of Cumberland and Gloucester always went to war over where the "town centre" of Orleans would be. Until 2001 the community of Orleans was cut in half by 2 cities. The border followed Champlain and Mer Bleue roads and straight through Place. Gloucester wanted it the town centre be near Youville Drive (that area actually use to have most of Orleans' retail. I do remember a Loblaws and Canadian Tire) and Cumberland wanted it to be on the municipal border where Place is now.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by canadianinmichigan

Fun fact-in the late 70s and 80s the cities of Cumberland and Gloucester always went to war over where the "town centre" of Orleans would be. Until 2001 the community of Orleans was cut in half by 2 cities. The border followed Champlain and Mer Bleue roads and straight through Place..

Even more fun fact: depending on which part of the mall the incident occurred in, when an emergency call was placed from Place d'Orléans it was either Gloucester city police or OPP (which patrolled Cumberland) that was responsible. The same goes for fire services.

[TheseBoots]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

Who shops at Marks anyway?

People who don't work for the government. My husband does most of his clothing shopping on once - twice a year outings to Marks. He owns a transport company to give you some idea of the demographic this retailer is geared toward. As much as PDO as a mall is dead, a Marks in that location makes way more sense than the useless and short-lived Target store. There was a boat sales shop temporarily in between Zellers and Target, iirc on the timeline. That actually gives a clue as to who shops in Orleans.

Orléans retail serves not only the suburb, but also the rural area east and southeast of it. Marks Work Warehouse is where this demographic shops moreso than say any of the outlets a Tanger would have. I was recently in Perth (out in the rural boonies west of Ottawa, for those who don't know and to save you a map search) and there is a huge Mark's there. I surmise that Marks does most of their business in what I will just call pick-up truck areas.

Speaking of shopping, the area in which PDO occupies would be too small for a Tanger as someone suggested, not to mention, Orleans does not need more retail of this sort. The Innes Rd. box store strip pretty much has that covered.



I think Place should be sold off and torn down for mixed rental and owner condos (such as exists out in Kanata). In this location, north-facing units would have a view of over the river and be in prime location.

I would also call for a health services unit to be included in the plan. Orléans desperately needs a new urgent care and medical clinic. The existing one in the plaza across from PDO is disgusting. It is old, dirty, too small and has service hours that defy rationale.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by TheseBoots

I would also call for a health services unit to be included in the plan. Orléans desperately needs a new urgent care and medical clinic. The existing one in the plaza across from PDO is disgusting. It is old, dirty, too small and has service hours that defy rationale.

They are planning a health hub on Mer Bleue. Though funding was guaranteed by the previous Liberal Government at Queen's Park, Ford hasn't committed to it, saying only he'll "run it through caucus".


https://hopitalmontfort.com/en/orleans-health-hub

[TheseBoots]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

They are planning a health hub on Mer Bleue. Though funding was guaranteed by the previous Liberal Government at Queen's Park, Ford hasn't committed to it, saying only he'll "run it through caucus".

Thanks. Interesting. There is still no emergency or urgent-care included this plan, though.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

They are planning a health hub on Mer Bleue. Though funding was guaranteed by the previous Liberal Government at Queen's Park, Ford hasn't committed to it, saying only he'll "run it through caucus".


https://hopitalmontfort.com/en/orleans-health-hub

I like how they are making people healthier by maximizing the distance that you have to walk from a bus stop to the front door of the facility.

Why are new public buildings in Ottawa always set so damn far back from the street?

[TransitZilla]

It looks like nobody has posted a link to Place d'Orleans' redevelopment page which shows renderings and a floor plan of the re-located food court.

http://placedorleans.com/pages/pdo-redevelopment

There is no mention of what will be taking its place on the 2nd floor. The page mentions that the new fall court will open in fall 2019.