Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[acottawa]

It's hard to see much advantage in dumping STO passengers at Bayview. The station will already be full with trillium riders, the trains will already be full with people coming from the west and a one-way rail bridge will not have more capacity than the bus lanes on the portage bridge (certainly much less) and people going the other way will have to cross downtown for no reason. At best this would be a niche service (rapibus users headed west).

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

But seriously, I agree that the best option would be to bring the STO across the PoW Bridge and dump the passengers onto the Confederation Line. If the Trillium line went across the bridge to a Rapibus terminal, it would force everyone to transfer from Rapibus to the Trillium Line, then go one stop across the river and transfer again to the Confederation Line. One extra transfer is maybe already asking too much, but asking them to transfer twice in rapid succession is a bit absurd.

Unless the Trillium Line (which would likely need to be renamed) was extended all the way up along the Rapibus line, it would not be an improvement in service for people crossing the river. Nor would it improve the Trillium Line, since, as Kitchissippi points out, any semblance of a schedule would disappear. In order to make the 1.8 km journey to Alexandre-Tache from Bayview, the LRT would take about three minutes, then there would be a three minute turn-around and another three minutes to get back to Bayview. Since there isn’t an extra nine minutes in the Trillium Line’s schedule, there would likely need to be a new passing track added (and likely another train or two). This could make it a twelve minute extension with the capital cost of the added passing siding. (It might be possible to extend the existing north siding up to the PoW bridge and have trains pass at the Bayview Station – similar to Carleton Station – but the current design of the new Bayview Station does not appear to include capacity to twin-track the Trillium Line through the station.)

If buses were used across the single-lane PoW Bridge segments, they could more easily pass on Lemieux Island or off each end of the bridges. Passing for buses is done under local control (visually, by the bus operators) so it is very fast. Also, with busways, it seems to be OK to have pedestrian crossings, which would not be permitted for a rail line.

That said, if the Trillium Line over the PoW bridge *complemented* and not *replaced* STO service, it would be a useful connection. It would attract those who live in Gatineau and do not work in downtown Ottawa, particularly those who work/study at Carleton University and those who work at Confederation Heights. Instead, they would use an STO bus to the central part of the Hull sector, and then transfer at Terrasses de la Chaudiere to the Trillium Line (there are tracks existing as far as the Chaudiere Bridge, and the warehouse across from Terrasses could be converted to a station). Although an additional transfer would be required, there would also be time savings to Tunney's Pasture (and capacity not an issue since they would be going against the flow of traffic).

The other benefit is for those who live in the south end of Ottawa and work in Gatineau, they would no longer have to take a bus through downtown or transfer multiple times. In addition, those who would currently use Route 105 as a shuttle to Gatineau could be moved to the Trillium Line, which results in cost savings for the City of Ottawa.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It seems to me that having two way traffic on a single lane bridge requires signal controls, not just visual decision making. Whenever you see a bridge reduced to single lane traffic during construction there are signals. And when it is controlled by signals, there is always significant delays. Is that not already the case when Rapibus crosses the Gatineau River?

As a single lane, the bridge could operate in the mornings southbound, with STO buses returning to Gatineau via Portage Bridge. (opposite direction to most of the commuting traffic) In the PM, the bridge could operate Northbound, with buses arriving via Portage bridge.
??

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

As a single lane, the bridge could operate in the mornings southbound, with STO buses returning to Gatineau via Portage Bridge. (opposite direction to most of the commuting traffic) In the PM, the bridge could operate Northbound, with buses arriving via Portage bridge.
??

Yes, that would make more sense and there will definitely be a need for buses crossing the Portage Bridge as well. moving southbound across the POW bridge and northbound across the Portage bridge in the AM and reverse in the PM. Doing a loop would also avoid the need of a major bus transfer station at Bayview.

I also like eternallyme's suggestion that creates the niche service to provide more direct service from Gatineau to Carleton, Confederation Heights and Tunney's Pasture rather than trying to funnel all passengers going to downtown onto the Confederation Line.

If we are to be pulling all STO buses out of downtown Ottawa in 2018, we better be ordering more trains right now. We will need them.

[Cre47]

\.

[Richard Eade]

The biggest problem with running the Trillium Line across the PoW Bridge is the fact that the bridge is currently a single track. To go from Bayview to Tache, exchange passengers, and return to Bayview will require trains to pass; one train can not be on its own doing that run for 12 minutes. There could be a passing track of about 300 metres on Lemieux Island, but I think that we have seen the problem with short passing tracks. (The current north passing track on the Trillium Line is about 300 metres in length and that slows both trains to almost walking speed.) An option for train service would be to twin the bridges, which would be hundreds of millions of dollars; i.e., it probably won’t happen. Also remember, in order to run trains across the PoW Bridge, the City has a report that claims that it would need $40M of structural work already; before any twinning began.

Buses, on the other hand, can pass with a short passing lane and would work fine with the single-lane bridge segments; as long as the frequency of buses is kept reasonable. (Currently, there is difficulty with Rapibus crossing the Gatineau River because there the frequency of buses is too high for the length of bridge.) I would suggest that the PoW Bridge segments would only need a running surface added for a single bus lane and the stretch between the bridges would be widened to have two bus lanes.

In answer to lrt’s friend; absolutely there would be control signals for the buses crossing each of the bridge segments; but control signals for buses are quite different from those for trains. And those signals would be coordinated between the two segments. Setting up traffic signals is something that City staff knows how to do. Those signals can be triggered by a series of sensors along the bridges so that the approximate position and direction of a bus can be monitored along each segment. The signaling can also be predictive, based on the bus schedules, switching to ‘green’ for the next expected bus when the bridge is clear. A signaling system for buses should be in the neighbourhood of a few hundred thousand dollars.

Eternallyme is correct in saying that this scheme would complement the remaining STO bus service in downtown Ottawa. This expectation is also bolstered by acottawa’s point that the existing bus lanes on the Portage Bridge could carry more passengers. Running the STO Rapibus across the PoW Bridge is not meant to totally remove ALL STO buses from Ottawa’s downtown. Running buses across the PoW Bridge should be a tens-of-millions of dollars project, and, as such, it is a relatively inexpensive way of reducing the number of buses that run across the river. I fully expect that there would need to be supplemental buses running across the Portage and Chaudière Bridges during peak periods; but maybe far fewer than now and none during the off-peak times. In addition to the Rapibus buses crossing the PoW Bridge, there might be others which shuttle into downtown Gatineau – Hull sector. Running any form of technology across the PoW Bridge will not remove all of the STO buses from downtown Ottawa any more than running the Confederation Line will remove all OC Transpo buses from Ottawa's core.

Oh, and to AndyMEng, yes interlining of trains could be done, but it is not something that the City of Ottawa seems interested in doing. Also, notice that the new Bayview Station is not designed for more than one track for the Trillium Line, nor is it designed to handle interlining of the Trillium Line with the Confederation Line.

[lrt's friend]

Oh, and to AndyMEng, yes interlining of trains could be done, but it is not something that the City of Ottawa seems interested in doing. Also, notice that the new Bayview Station is not designed for more than one track for the Trillium Line, nor is it designed to handle interlining of the Trillium Line with the Confederation Line.

This will be Jim Watson's legacy as it was him and his advisors who pushed for the elimination of the future connection of the Trillium Line to the Confederation Line to save money. This will permanently limit the success of the Trillium Line and will limit its usefulness for accessing downtown.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

[B][SIZE="4"]But there's a short-term issue: What should be done about STO buses in downtown Ottawa once Ottawa's Confederation Line LRT opens in 2018?

Rideau-Vanier Coun. Mathieu Fleury acknowledged that the Prince of Wales Bridge has come up in discussions as a possible busway to help divert STO buses away from Ottawa's downtown.

Why is it taken as a given that having ZOMG BUSES run downtown is a bad thing that constitutes a problem that needs solving?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

But seriously, I agree that the best option would be to bring the STO across the PoW Bridge and dump the passengers onto the Confederation Line. If the Trillium line went across the bridge to a Rapibus terminal, it would force everyone to transfer from Rapibus to the Trillium Line, then go one stop across the river and transfer again to the Confederation Line.

Or extending the Trillium Line into Hull, and the Crapibus south to meet the Confederation Line, could be two separate things serving two separate transit purposes and needs.

The choice isn't binary. Both of these things can be done.

Also, with busways, it seems to be OK to have pedestrian crossings, which would not be permitted for a rail line.

Tell that to the City of Ottawa transit-planning genius who designed Temporary Baseline.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It's hard to see much advantage in dumping STO passengers at Bayview. The station will already be full with trillium riders, the trains will already be full with people coming from the west and a one-way rail bridge will not have more capacity than the bus lanes on the portage bridge (certainly much less) and people going the other way will have to cross downtown for no reason. At best this would be a niche service (rapibus users headed west).

If only there were some way to only put an eastbound train into passenger service at some other station besides the westernmost one on the line.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This will be Jim Watson's legacy as it was him and his advisors who pushed for the elimination of the future connection of the Trillium Line to the Confederation Line to save money. This will permanently limit the success of the Trillium Line and will limit its usefulness for accessing downtown.

Was money the reason? I thought that they chose to eliminate the connection to allow the Trillium Line and Confederation Platforms to be directly on top of each other for easier transfers.

[FFX-ME]

Personally my favorite option for this bridge would be to run a surface streetcar on it in a loop connecting both downtowns and the two "rapid" LRT lines:

http://www.ottawastreetcar.com/

The cost estimate of this project is also really low (16 Million for tracks for phase 1, trains extra)

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Was money the reason? I thought that they chose to eliminate the connection to allow the Trillium Line and Confederation Platforms to be directly on top of each other for easier transfers.

This all took place at the same time as the deep cross country route through downtown was replaced. It was intended to contain costs to the original $2.1 billion price estimate. To build the interchange station at Bayview so that Trillium Line trains could eventually run into the tunnel once the line was electrified was going cost considerably more than to have the station as currently planned. Bayview station was going to be east of the current plan so that Trillium Line trains would curve into the Confederation Line. While still in diesel operations, the trains would stop, parallel to Confederation Line trains and you would cross the platform to the Confederation Line trains to transfer. With electrification, the trains would continue from the station and merge at a point before entering the tunnel, actually before reaching Pimisi Station. My memory is a little fuzzy so I can't remember whether the two train lines came in parallel or at two different levels before merging, perhaps the latter. It would have been a rather complicated arrangement.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Personally my favorite option for this bridge would be to run a surface streetcar on it in a loop connecting both downtowns and the two "rapid" LRT lines:

http://www.ottawastreetcar.com/

The cost estimate of this project is also really low (16 Million for tracks for phase 1, trains extra)

The only problem with this is that Prince of Wales Bridge is quite far west of downtown and would be less useful than a loop that crosses at Chaudière or Portage.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This all took place at the same time as the deep cross country route through downtown was replaced. It was intended to contain costs to the original $2.1 billion price estimate. To build the interchange station at Bayview so that Trillium Line trains could eventually run into the tunnel once the line was electrified was going cost considerably more than to have the station as currently planned. Bayview station was going to be east of the current plan so that Trillium Line trains would curve into the Confederation Line. While still in diesel operations, the trains would stop, parallel to Confederation Line trains and you would cross the platform to the Confederation Line trains to transfer. With electrification, the trains would continue from the station and merge at a point before entering the tunnel, actually before reaching Pimisi Station. My memory is a little fuzzy so I can't remember whether the two train lines came in parallel or at two different levels before merging, perhaps the latter. It would have been a rather complicated arrangement.

I thought I saw somewhere that there was land being "preserved" for the track curve if/when the line merging were to occur. Any truth to that? or are we doomed to have this a stacked transfer station forever?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I thought I saw somewhere that there was land being "preserved" for the track curve if/when the line merging were to occur. Any truth to that? or are we doomed to have this a stacked transfer station forever?

I have not heard whether that land was released for other purposes. It would not surprise me that the city would do such a thing.

[lrt's friend]

http://ottawa.ca/sites/default/files...13_final-s.pdf

This pretty well confirms that the option to merge the Confederation Line and the Trillium Line will not happen in the future.

This also likely delays any possibility of double tracking of the Trillium Line for decades.

[Radster]

What about MOOSE? Are they not planning on using the POW bridge?

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by Radster

What about MOOSE? Are they not planning on using the POW bridge?

Their first like will be from the southwest (Stitsville). Although they are planning on running their North lines on the POW bridge, they haven't been granted access to the bridge and have mainly only been rallying against its conversion into a pedestrian bridge.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

http://ottawa.ca/sites/default/files...13_final-s.pdf

This pretty well confirms that the option to merge the Confederation Line and the Trillium Line will not happen in the future.

This also likely delays any possibility of double tracking of the Trillium Line for decades.

This is great info... thanks LRT!

On my quick scan it certainly appears it will just be a *wee* bit too dense for the curved connection

... but why do you rule out double-tracking Trillium ??