Why does everyone love Montreal?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by travis3000

^ Toronto has the same problem. It's a big city thing. All the rural dwellers have this secret inner hate about city living. They just can't understand it.

"Secret" hate?

Pollution.
Traffic.
Crime.
Lack of green spaces.
Lack of space altogether.
Much more expensive cost of living.

Nothing secret in there... To each their own, simply.

[Acajack]

As far as stuff that city-loving people tend to like or consider important, I would stack up Quebec City vs. Ottawa like this:

Diversity of population: Ottawa by a million miles
Public transit: Ottawa
Style: Quebec City by a good margin
Dining (diversity): Ottawa though Quebec City does better than one might think
Dining (quality): Quebec City by a hair
Shopping: pretty equal
Urban aesthetics: Quebec City
Arts and culture: pretty close
Weather: Ottawa
Nightlife: Quebec City
History: Quebec City
Skyline: neither is that great, but Quebec City's is prettier
Cost of living: Quebec City
Scenery: tied
Location: Ottawa
Education: Ottawa

[rousseau]

My wife and I had a terrific time in Quebec City. Sure, the tourism experience can be a cliche, with buskers playing "La Vie en Rose" on harmonica or accordion, and if I were 22 again I would have high-tailed it out of there just because of that, but I'm still basking in the glow of our trip there last weekend.

Why? Because here's what happened:

Literally within two minutes of hopping on my bike and gliding down La Grande Allee in preparation for a nice two-hour ride along La Route Verte, I happened upon another road cyclist who was going to do the same thing. Claude, a 60-year-old retiree and native of the city, led me to La Route de la Nouvelle France (aka Avenue Royale), the oldest roadway in that part of the world, and pointed out the Norman-style houses and other sites of interest. We talked politics and as much else as I could muster in French. Eventually near the end of our ride he spoke more English--turns out his wife is an English-speaker!

He is a separatist. I'm a Trudeau Liberal. But we found common ground, not least because we're cycling fanatics. I didn't give any opinions, I just mostly listened. I like to think that we had a real "Canadian moment," a rapprochement, as it were.

Oh, here's one of his anecdotes: In 1971 he was refused service in a bar in Toronto by a barman who told him "we don't serve Frenchie bastards here." And that was the last time he was in Toronto. Who can blame him? Though I can't wrap my head around the vitriol of said barman. I mean, when did any Quebecker ever piss in any Torontonian's corn flakes? I find it hard to believe those attitudes were so widespread in Toronto back then (honestly, what would be the reason for it?), and I like to think that said barman was just an asshole. Though maybe I'm just being naive on that score.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

My wife and I had a terrific time in Quebec City. Sure, the tourism experience can be a cliche, with buskers playing "La Vie en Rose" on harmonica or accordion, and if I were 22 again I would have high-tailed it out of there just because of that, but I'm still basking in the glow of our trip there last weekend.

Why? Because here's what happened:

Literally within two minutes of hopping on my bike and gliding down La Grande Allee in preparation for a nice two-hour ride along La Route Verte, I happened upon another road cyclist who was going to do the same thing. Claude, a 60-year-old retiree and native of the city, led me to La Route de la Nouvelle France (aka Avenue Royale), the oldest roadway in that part of the world, and pointed out the Norman-style houses and other sites of interest. We talked politics and as much else as I could muster in French. Eventually near the end of our ride he spoke more English--turns out his wife is an English-speaker!

He is a separatist. I'm a Trudeau Liberal. But we found common ground, not least because we're cycling fanatics. I didn't give any opinions, I just mostly listened. I like to think that we had a real "Canadian moment," a rapprochement, as it were.

Oh, here's one of his anecdotes: In 1971 he was refused service in a bar in Toronto by a barman who told him "we don't serve Frenchie bastards here." And that was the last time he was in Toronto. Who can blame him? Though I can't wrap my head around the vitriol of said barman. I mean, when did any Quebecker ever piss in any Torontonian's corn flakes? I find it hard to believe those attitudes were so widespread in Toronto back then (honestly, what would be the reason for it?), and I like to think that said barman was just an asshole. Though maybe I'm just being naive on that score.

Encounters like this one are one of the joys of travel, aren't they? (The cyclist, not the bartender.)

Two points -

- You probably didn't have to reveal your political views since everyone assumes that ROCers all think a certain way when it comes to the Canadian unity file.

- As for the the Toronto barman, it is quite possible that this happened. These people do exist but of course this would be extremely rare occurrence. Even decades ago. That said, one probably should not base one's political views on something like this (not saying Claude did this), and I've travelled enough to have had bad experiences with scores of nationalities. If I hated every single one of them because of this, I wouldn't like anyone. Including myself!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Weather: Ottawa

I'd call that a draw, honestly...

In, say, a NYC vs LA comparison, sure, weather is a big factor... but in Canada?

A couple degrees more, a couple degrees less, Ottawa is definitely slightly warmer, but not enough to cause the slightest change in lifestyle (which is where I draw the bar for whether or not a given difference in weather does matter -- move from QC to Victoria BC, you don't have to shovel your driveway any more; move to Ottawa and you'll actually keep 100% the same winter clothes...)

[kool maudit]

the thing i found with ottawa is that it has this sort of outdoorsy thing going that undercuts its city-ness. a lot of people seem like they're ready to go hiking or kayaking; less seem like they're about to have a three-hour dinner or see a show.

i love that sort of thing in nelson or whatever, but less so in a capital.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by travis3000

^ Toronto has the same problem. It's a big city thing. All the rural dwellers have this secret inner hate about city living. They just can't understand it.

Mmm. And how do you feel about rural living? Probably just can't understand it, eh?

It's silly to generalize about people based on what kind of community they live in.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'd call that a draw, honestly...

In, say, a NYC vs LA comparison, sure, weather is a big factor... but in Canada?

A couple degrees more, a couple degrees less, Ottawa is definitely slightly warmer, but not enough to cause the slightest change in lifestyle (which is where I draw the bar for whether or not a given difference in weather does matter -- move from QC to Victoria BC, you don't have to shovel your driveway any more; move to Ottawa and you'll actually keep 100% the same winter clothes...)

I agree with you personally but my rating was based on what I hear from people. Winters in Ottawa are long but in Quebec City they start even earlier and end later, and blissfully gorgeous summer days are somewhat rarer as well. Apparently this is psychologically difficult for a lot of people.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

- You probably didn't have to reveal your political views since everyone assumes that ROCers all think a certain way when it comes to the Canadian unity file.

Actually, what prompted the political discussion was a question I asked, which was: How would you characterize the relations between Montreal and Quebec? I was interested in his views about the nature of a perceived rivalry. But he didn't actually address that specifically, and instead went off on a tangent about the nature of political society in Quebec, which in his opinion was "immature" due to not having been at the table when decisions were made for so much of its history.

It was only after much one-sided discussion on his part (me listening) that he smiled and said that I could probably guess that he was a separatist. I then offered that I was a Liberal, but we didn't specifically talk about the debate surrounding separation. The banter was light-hearted and cheery. It was a beautiful Saturday, and one of the best bike rides I've had in a long time.

(I saw a lot of serious road cyclists on La Route Verte and Anenue Royale, by the way, even some teams--very cool).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

the thing i found with ottawa is that it has this sort of outdoorsy thing going that undercuts its city-ness. a lot of people seem like they're ready to go hiking or kayaking; less seem like they're about to have a three-hour dinner or see a show.

i love that sort of thing in nelson or whatever, but less so in a capital.

What you see at play is really an inability to compartmentalize your dress in accordance with the occasion. Kayak-wear is fine for kayaking, and hiking-wear is fine for hiking.

But sorry to say but it doesn't really look that great when you're going out for dinner on the town with your wife, taking in a show at the National Arts Centre (regardless of the type of show) or, dare I say, going to the movies even.

I think that's part of what you mean by Ottawa not being capital-like.

I mean, Ottawa in this sense is not the only city like this - many in Canada and the US are like this too.

But for capital cities, it's not something that jumps out at you like it does in Ottawa. And I am not talking Rome, Paris and London here. I am talking Budapest, Oslo, Bern, Helsinki, Brasilia, Beirut, Warsaw...

[leftimage]

I'm from Montreal and my girlfriend's parents are in Quebec city. We both agree that there are mutual feelings of indifference and incompatibility between these two cities. Personally, I need ethnics, gays, anglos, bohemians, 450s (translation: douchey suburbanites), hipsters, etc in my city... I need the variety. QC is sorely lacking in this regard imo.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by leftimage

I'm from Montreal and my girlfriend's parents are in Quebec city. We both agree that there are mutual feelings of indifference and incompatibility between these two cities. Personally, I need ethnics, gays, anglos, bohemians, 450s (translation: douchey suburbanites), hipsters, etc in my city... I need the variety. QC is sorely lacking in this regard imo.

I thought you were a Lavallois?

[leftimage]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I thought you were a Lavallois?

briefly, during my formative years...



But like many closeted Lavallers, I had always studied, worked and played in the big city. Naturally, I moved out at the first possible opportunity.

Mind you, I'd still feel much more comfortable in Laval vs Quebec city. It's more exciting and intriguing - strange as that sounds.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What you see at play is really an inability to compartmentalize your dress in accordance with the occasion. Kayak-wear is fine for kayaking, and hiking-wear is fine for hiking.

But sorry to say but it doesn't really look that great when you're going out for dinner on the town with your wife, taking in a show at the National Arts Centre (regardless of the type of show) or, dare I say, going to the movies even.

What happens if you want to do both back to back? I don't get the connection between dressing up and urbanity. It is too single use. Isn't the main value proposition of cities that one can do diverse, seemingly random things within a relatively small geographic area on your own schedule?

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by Doug

What happens if you want to do both back to back? I don't get the connection between dressing up and urbanity. It is too single use. Isn't the main value proposition of cities that one can do diverse, seemingly random things within a relatively small geographic area on your own schedule?

But isn't dressing for Kayaking or hiking also supposed to be "single use", or at least similarly purposeful that it limits the appropriateness for other activities or situations?

As you said, the urbanity bonus is that, ideally, your centralized to all of these activities and the transition time, if required, is minimized.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I mean, when did any Quebecker ever piss in any Torontonian's corn flakes? I find it hard to believe those attitudes were so widespread in Toronto back then (honestly, what would be the reason for it?), and I like to think that said barman was just an asshole.

It sounds like the barman was definitely an asshole, but 1971 was right around the time of the FLQ crisis in Quebec as well, so it was an extremely volatile and politically-charged time in French Canada, and the rest of Canada had opinions on the matter, too.

[franktko]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Oh, here's one of his anecdotes: In 1971 he was refused service in a bar in Toronto by a barman who told him "we don't serve Frenchie bastards here." And that was the last time he was in Toronto. Who can blame him? Though I can't wrap my head around the vitriol of said barman. I mean, when did any Quebecker ever piss in any Torontonian's corn flakes? I find it hard to believe those attitudes were so widespread in Toronto back then (honestly, what would be the reason for it?), and I like to think that said barman was just an asshole. Though maybe I'm just being naive on that score.

I met a man in BC in the 80s and he hated Frenchies (told me not to take it personally ) He told me the exact same thing happened to him while visiting Quebec (or maybe it was just because he was an asshole to begin with that he got the rude treatment )

Anyway, my point is, yeah, you'll find assholes everywhere

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree with you personally but my rating was based on what I hear from people. Winters in Ottawa are long but in Quebec City they start even earlier and end later, and blissfully gorgeous summer days are somewhat rarer as well. Apparently this is psychologically difficult for a lot of people.

It's funny because a lot of Canadians seem to be of the opinion that there isn't much difference in weather between different parts of the country (often with some kind of caveat about BC), but my experience has been that the differences are fairly noticeable. Ottawa-Quebec City is a comparatively minor difference as far as Canada goes and even that amounts to a month or two more winter, and shorter summers.

To me, the climate seems like an unfortunate drawback for Montreal, but maybe I'd get used to it if I lived there for a long period of time. People in Quebec do seem to be better than average when it comes to taking advantage of winter activities rather than just sitting around waiting for the snow to disappear, probably because that would be hard to do for 3 or 4 months.

[Architype]

^ Of course there are differences in the weather, even within provinces and metro areas. In St. John's NL, as well as Vancouver, there are even differences within the cities themselves. Not to troll on Toronto, but every time I've been there it's been either too hot, too cold, too humid, too windy etc. I think Montreal is similar; I've been there twice for a real visit, and it was too hot, too rainy as well (in late summer) - I still liked Montreal a lot though, it's the energy vibe and the style, even though my français is practically non-existent. Personally, I honestly can't see how anyone can live far away from the ocean, it actually makes me claustrophobic just to think about it.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's funny because a lot of Canadians seem to be of the opinion that there isn't much difference in weather between different parts of the country (often with some kind of caveat about BC), but my experience has been that the differences are fairly noticeable. Ottawa-Quebec City is a comparatively minor difference as far as Canada goes and even that amounts to a month or two more winter, and shorter summers.

To me, the climate seems like an unfortunate drawback for Montreal, but maybe I'd get used to it if I lived there for a long period of time. People in Quebec do seem to be better than average when it comes to taking advantage of winter activities rather than just sitting around waiting for the snow to disappear, probably because that would be hard to do for 3 or 4 months.

A month or two more winter???

Spring usually arrives nearly on the very same day in QC as in Montreal... same thing for the first snows... It's a bit more likely to melt in Montreal (especially since it's more assiduously removed from the streets than any other place, so in mid-winter, there seems to be less of it than elsewhere in the province, and there can be none on the ground at times because of that) but the difference isn't big.

Classic cases of relocating for weather reasons (retirees, usually) are more like moving out of New England to settle in southern Florida -- compared to that, Canada's differences are not really noticeable and they don't result in lifestyle differences.

I have never, ever, ever heard of anyone relocating from QC to Mtl (or Ott) for weather reasons.