Ottawa Senators Kanata Arena

[McC]

Originally Posted by acottawa

- nobody but Bruce Firestone thought that was a good model to emulate (certainly none of the other owners building arenas in the 90s).

You've obviously never been to Sunrise, Florida.

[J.OT13]

Four teams currently play in suburban arena. These teams are, in terms of net worth, No 16 Ottawa Senators (400 million) playing in the 1996 Corel Centre, No 22 New York Islanders (300 million) playing in the 1972 Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum, No 27 Arizona Coyotes (225 million) playing in the 2003 Fila River Arena and No 30 Florida Panthers (190 million) playing in the 1998 BT&T Centre.

I'm pretty sure that the fact the second lowest valued Canadian team and that the 3 of the bottom 10 valued NHL teams have suburban arenas is a coincidence.

Miami and Phoenix are just plain bad markets (and I'm sure they were not doing any better when they played downtown) and Ottawa's fan base is split into three, though I honestly think that a downtown arena would improve the situation.

I do think that the Islanders' struggles might actually be link to the bad location, or maybe because they consistently suck or maybe the fan base is still split 43 years later which would be a consideration when looking at a second southern Ontario team.

Source for net worth:

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations...on:asc_search:

Source for NHL arena:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._League_arenas

[HighwayStar]

Minor correction...

Originally Posted by J.OT13

lowest valued Canadian team

... Winnipeg Jets - $358m

Other than that... I like your analysis

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Minor correction...



... Winnipeg Jets - $358m

Other than that... I like your analysis

Oh right, I forgot about the Jets!

That's simple though; smallest market, smallest arena! The owners probably get one of the best bang for their buck though.

[J.OT13]

Looking at the arenas, looks like Carolina's 1999 PNC arena is in suburban Raleigh, though it is only 10 km away from downtown. Worth noting that Carolina is number 28 on the list, worth 220 million and the second worst performing team after Florida.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Carolina's 1999 PNC arena is in suburban Raleigh, though it is only 10 km away from downtown.

True... but while there are not bars/restaurants within stumbling distance, one could argue it is "sort of" central to the tri-city triangle of Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill.... i.e. easy to reach major population centers in every direction.

Now Florida ... at 50km by road from downtown Miami... and in a giant parking lot at the very edge of Sunrise... which is itself a suburb of Fort Lauderdale.... Definitely top of my list for worst location ever.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

True... but while there are not bars/restaurants within stumbling distance, one could argue it is "sort of" central to the tri-city triangle of Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill.... i.e. easy to reach major population centers in every direction.

Now Florida ... at 50km by road from downtown Miami... and in a giant parking lot at the very edge of Sunrise... which is itself a suburb of Fort Lauderdale.... Definitely top of my list for worst location ever.

I've been to a game in Carolina. It is definitely a suburban environment, with car-only access and virtually no development nearby.

Anaheim is also a suburban team. And Philadelphia is not suburban in the same sense, but it's a decent distance from downtown as well.

But yes, Florida is by far the worst location of the lot. Sprawl on one side, swamp on the other.

[lrt's friend]

Having travelled to Raleigh a few times, the area has terrible sprawl and very little urban focus. Raleigh does not have much of a downtown. I have driven by the arena there which in a way is more central than CTC with sprawl in every direction but it is also in a very suburban or even exurban location next to a freeway.

[J.OT13]

I have to start doing my research instead of just listening to the media. They only mentioned Florida and Phoenix as suburban facilities. Maybe they meant suburban in the `not within the City limits' sense.

Carolina's arena would be similar to building the Corel Centre in old Gatineau. Near downtown, but no transit (pre-Rapibus) or entertainment nearby.

Anaheim in itself is pretty much a suburb of L.A. so it`s hard to fault them for the bad location. Their tiny ass downtown would not have been a much better location.

Philadelphia opened all three of their major league stadiums between 1996 and 2004 at the tail end of the suburban sports facility era. They are still only 11 km away from downtown and built on a subway line.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I have to start doing my research instead of just listening to the media. They only mentioned Florida and Phoenix as suburban facilities. Maybe they meant suburban in the `not within the City limits' sense.

Carolina's arena would be similar to building the Corel Centre in old Gatineau. Near downtown, but no transit (pre-Rapibus) or entertainment nearby.

Anaheim in itself is pretty much a suburb of L.A. so it`s hard to fault them for the bad location. Their tiny ass downtown would not have been a much better location.

Philadelphia opened all three of their major league stadiums between 1996 and 2004 at the tail end of the suburban sports facility era. They are still only 11 km away from downtown and built on a subway line.

I think that Anaheim is more evidence that a suburban location hurts franchise value, but it is true that there is likely no better location in that area, with the possible exception of Long Beach.

Philadelphia definitely built within the era of downtown arenas, as it was contemporary to Montreal/Boston/Buffalo/Chicago, but it is on the subway and is part of a sports campus. As I recall, there were some restaurants etc. that were walkable, though it would depend on your comfort level with South Philly.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that Anaheim is more evidence that a suburban location hurts franchise value, but it is true that there is likely no better location in that area, with the possible exception of Long Beach.

Philadelphia definitely built within the era of downtown arenas, as it was contemporary to Montreal/Boston/Buffalo/Chicago, but it is on the subway and is part of a sports campus. As I recall, there were some restaurants etc. that were walkable, though it would depend on your comfort level with South Philly.

I think it's time to move that Mickey Mouse franchise to a more intelligent location all together, or try and do like Phoenix; move it to long beach and rename them the "California Ducks".

Your right, only 6/19 arenas built in the 90s and early 2000s are suburban.

Arizona/Raleigh/Florida/Ottawa/Philadelphia/Anaheim are in the suburbs

vs.

L.A./Dallas/Minnesota/Columbus/Montreal/Boston/Buffalo/Chicago/Denver/Nashville/Vancouver/Tampa/St. Louis/Toronto are all downtown

[waterloowarrior]

I think out of those 6 90s/2000s suburban arenas, Ottawa and Florida are the only ones not located in an sports complex area with baseball or football stadiums.

[Cre47]

Just to add, the Islanders are moving to Brooklyn next season or the following. So one less suburban team

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I have to start doing my research instead of just listening to the media. They only mentioned Florida and Phoenix as suburban facilities. Maybe they meant suburban in the `not within the City limits' sense.

Carolina's arena would be similar to building the Corel Centre in old Gatineau. Near downtown, but no transit (pre-Rapibus) or entertainment nearby.

Anaheim in itself is pretty much a suburb of L.A. so it`s hard to fault them for the bad location. Their tiny ass downtown would not have been a much better location.

Philadelphia opened all three of their major league stadiums between 1996 and 2004 at the tail end of the suburban sports facility era. They are still only 11 km away from downtown and built on a subway line.

The Anaheim arena is about as close to "downtown" as exists in OC, it is walking distance of both the Amtrak station and a commuter rail station (and in theory a future HSR station) and fairly close to major attractions (and LA proper already had a team).

Philly is 3 miles from city hall on the subway, it isn't downtown per se, but it is very centrally located (Lebreton or Hurdman equivalent in Ottawa, perhaps).

I don't know anything about North Carolina geography, but the arena seems to be quite centrally located to the metro area (and close to major attractions in the region).

I think that leaves Ottawa, Arizona (both recently bankrupt), Florida (worst attendance in hockey) and Long Island (moving to Brooklyn after this season) as teams in suburban locations where more centrally located locations exist, and all have paid a hefty price for that choise.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Anaheim arena is about as close to "downtown" as exists in OC, it is walking distance of both the Amtrak station and a commuter rail station (and in theory a future HSR station) and fairly close to major attractions (and LA proper already had a team).

Philly is 3 miles from city hall on the subway, it isn't downtown per se, but it is very centrally located (Lebreton or Hurdman equivalent in Ottawa, perhaps).

I don't know anything about North Carolina geography, but the arena seems to be quite centrally located to the metro area (and close to major attractions in the region).

I think that leaves Ottawa, Arizona (both recently bankrupt), Florida (worst attendance in hockey) and Long Island (moving to Brooklyn after this season) as teams in suburban locations where more centrally located locations exist, and all have paid a hefty price for that choise.

Carolina is in a suburban area, with low densities, although closer to downtown. It would be like placing the CTC at the edge of the urban area near the Greenbelt - something like Bells Corners or South Keys.

[lrt's friend]

PNC is in an island between three freeways. The most equivalent here in Ottawa would be near the 'split' in the east end or the 416/417 junction in the west end but with no rapid transit nearby.

[HighwayStar]

This thread and Google Earth has gotten the better of me I've been to several of the above mentioned arenas in person... but not to the "downtown" United Center in Chicago...

Though it appears to be only 4km from the skyscrapers, it is surrounded by a sea of parking lots... is not on a Subway line (website mentions which bus to catch)... and appears to have nothing at all in the way of pre/post game amenities in the area ??? :o

Could this be a downtown arena that "isn't" ??

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

This thread and Google Earth has gotten the better of me I've been to several of the above mentioned arenas in person... but not to the "downtown" United Center in Chicago...

Though it appears to be only 4km from the skyscrapers, it is surrounded by a sea of parking lots... is not on a Subway line (website mentions which bus to catch)... and appears to have nothing at all in the way of pre/post game amenities in the area ??? :o

Could this be a downtown arena that "isn't" ??

I've been there numerous times and it's a downtown-ish arena with nothing of interest nearby, and no mass/rapid transit service (there is bus service).

In fact, it's location is such that you probably don't want to stray a block or two west if you value your safety.

Chicago is one of my favorite cities and the United Center itself is excellent...however its location isn't.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I've been there numerous times and it's a downtown-ish arena with nothing of interest nearby, and no mass/rapid transit service (there is bus service).

In fact, it's location is such that you probably don't want to stray a block or two west if you value your safety.

Chicago is one of my favorite cities and the United Center itself is excellent...however its location isn't.

It is particularly odd, because the L goes right by the arena, so there doesn't seem to be any reason there couldn't be a stop within a couple of blocks.

I remember being taken to that area as a kid by hockey billets from Chicago. It was a non-game day. When I asked if we could stop the car to see the arena, they said that it wasn't safe to even get out and take a picture. They were suburbanites, mind you, but that may explain the lack of nearby development.

[YOWflier]

When I first went there I had a pregame meal in nearby Greek town. When I asked restaurant staff if I could/should park on a side-street near the arena to save some money (parking fees), they looked at me like I was from another planet.

The next time I went I unintentionally drove through some of the nearby neighborhoods to get there thanks to the my trusty GPS. Let's just say that I was praying not to get any red lights...the locals were very aware of my presence and the message was that I was NOT welcome.

GPSs really should have an "Avoid Probable Harm" option alongside the avoid tolls and highways options.