Highway 174

[Richard Eade]

Councilor Blais submitted an inquiry to Council because he was concerned that some recent resurfacing work on the OR174 had not solved the rough condition of the road.

What is the status of the repairs to the repairs of HWY 174?
Has the Contractor been informed of their poor level of service to the Community?

The answer has now bee released and it doesn’t sound promising:

Renewal and maintenance work on Highway 174 between the 417/174 split and Montreal Road has proven to be a challenge due to the way the road is constructed. The two interior lanes in both directions run over a concrete base. This base has moved at many of the joints and has resulted in an uneven riding surface. These breaks, if left untreated, will result in accelerated deterioration and could pose safety risks.

Maintenance work was undertaken in 2008 to repair these breaks by milling and paving at the joints. These breaks have reappeared and staff recently repaved the affected areas. Works undertaken to date are temporary maintenance solutions and eventually more extensive rehabilitation is required.

Staff are currently reviewing renewal options. Field data is being collected to assist in determining both short and long term solutions. Staff expect to identify a preferred approach by the end of September 2011.

It should be noted at this time that staff anticipate the renewal options to be both a challenge and costly.

Quotes taken from http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...%20-%20Blais%20-%20%20HWY%20174%20v1.htm

So for some reason Staff assumed that there would be little further movement of the concrete plates under the OR174 lanes and that grinding the rough spots and resurfacing the road would solve the problems. This makes no sense to me what-so-ever, based on my experience, but it was a way to waste money, I guess.

Now Staff is looking into what it will take to actually FIX the problem. Of course, the only real solution is to dig up the road, remove the concrete slabs, and build a proper roadbed. The problem being that this will involve shutting down the road lanes during construction. The money is not so much of an issue although it is likely to be in the $100M-$150M range for the full four Kilometres.

With the Province planning to add an extra lane to the 417 west of The Split, it would be best to actually do the work on the OR174 at the same time. There will be major traffic problems due to the 417 construction so extending that to the OR174 might seem lessen the blow. Also, by fall of 2012 we should have the 85 new double-decker buses. If these can be employed for enhanced service between Orleans and Downtown then there could be a modal shift from cars (which would be bottle-necked by the construction) to buses (for which there should always be clear bus-lanes maintained).

Since the problem originated from the Province (assuming they were the ones who initially laid a concrete road), they should be required to help cover the cost of the road rebuilding.

[Lakche]

Looks like this weekend they're putting up the steel I beams for the new Cyrville Road bridge over the eastbound 417 this weekend.

2 left lanes will be closed from 8pm Sept 30 to 10 am Oct 1

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/trip/road_closures.shtml#Event69588

HWY 417 Eastbound [St. Laurent Blvd - Ottawa Rd 174] - Construction
Highway:        HWY 417
Direction:      Eastbound
From/At:        St. Laurent Blvd
To:             Ottawa Rd 174
Lanes Affected: Left shoulder and 2 left lanes
Traffic Impact: Serious
Reason:         Construction
Event Start:    September 30, 2011 20:00
Event End:      October 01, 2011 10:00
Last Change:    UPDATED 2011-09-29 01:41

[Cre47]

EA-Statement of Work

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit...%20174-County%20Road%2017%20EA%20SOW.htm

[eternallyme]

Project website: http://roadtorockland.com/

[DubberDom]

Article in Citizen
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Cumberland+councillor+pushes+Highway+expansion/7150979/story.html

Once again, Stephen Blais demonstrates a complete lack of understanding regarding the issue.

Let's understand his logic

- The City of Ottawa should pay to build a road to encourage people to relocate to Rockland and commute to Ottawa to work.
- The City of Ottawa is expanding the Park & ride, Rural Express Bus Service and increasing funding to lower transit costs in Rural Cumberland to allow more capacity for the benefit of Rockland commuters who pay no taxes for the services they use in Ottawa
- Policies of intensification and limiting sprawl apply in Ottawa, but not encouraged in Rockland... so once again, we pay for them
- His accusation of Rob Jellett rejecting the funding in 2008 is erroneous, he rejected the money because there was no benefit to the city of Ottawa.

There is only one solution - impose an infrastructure levy (ie. Toll) for all roads leading into the City of Ottawa, especially between 6AM and 9AM. Having to pay $3-$5 per day to come into Ottawa would serve the purpose of reducing traffic, encouraging public transit use (ie. Rockland's CRT bus service), raising revenue for the City (a new tax that will not impact Ottawa rate-payers) and limiting expansion and sprawl outside the city's borders.

I live in Cumberland Ward and the opinion amongst residents is almost unanimous - we do not want more traffic coming in to Ottawa from Rockland. The 174 is already a big traffic issue, we need to find solutions, not more problems.

[McKellarDweller]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

Article in Citizen
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Cumberland+councillor+pushes+Highway+expansion/7150979/story.html
There is only one solution - impose an infrastructure levy (ie. Toll) for all roads leading into the City of Ottawa, especially between 6AM and 9AM. Having to pay $3-$5 per day to come into Ottawa would serve the purpose of reducing traffic, encouraging public transit use (ie. Rockland's CRT bus service), raising revenue for the City (a new tax that will not impact Ottawa rate-payers) and limiting expansion and sprawl outside the city's borders.

Well said, IMO

[lrt's friend]

Tolling offers no solution as traffic will find a way around it and create even bigger problems on roads not designed for traffic volumes. We cannot toll every road entering the city.

The problem stems back to when Mike Harris downloaded so many provincial highways. This was a particular problem with Highway 17 because Highway 417 goes so far south when leaving the city. We have too much cross-boundary traffic not being served by a provincial highway. We have 3 provincial highways leaving the west end of the city but only one leaving the east end. We now see all the jurisdictional and cost problems. The city of Ottawa having to subsidize growing traffic from beyond its boundaries and widening the road just encourages more problems in the future.

What needs to happen is that old Highway 17 needs to be uploaded so that road widening because of cross juridictional traffic can be planned at a provincial level. At some point, road widening will have to occur just for safety reasons but this will be delayed as long as this is in municipal hands. Our municipal politicians both in Ottawa and Rockland/Clarence should be lobbying to have this road re-uploaded. It is the only real and fair solution to the problem.

On the topic of transit, we should also be pushing the province for a regional transit authority that will include all these growing border towns, such as Rockland, Casselman, Embrum, Russell, Kemptville, Carleton Place, Almonte and Arnprior. This will allow some proper integration of transit service and more importantly some taxing authority to at least cover the cost of Park n Ride lots and subsized use of OC Transpo when travelling into Ottawa. If the majority of a community's population commute into Ottawa for work or school, they should be taxed even a minimal transit levy.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

On the topic of transit, we should also be pushing the province for a regional transit authority that will include all these growing border towns, such as Rockland, Casselman, Embrum, Russell, Kemptville, Carleton Place, Almonte and Arnprior. This will allow some proper integration of transit service and more importantly some taxing authority to at least cover the cost of Park n Ride lots and subsized use of OC Transpo when travelling into Ottawa. If the majority of a community's population commute into Ottawa for work or school, they should be taxed even a minimal transit levy.

I completely agree, but we aren't Toronto. Ergo, the province won't invest in any such project for Ottawa. Not part of the "Move Metro Toronto 2020" plan.

[Marshsparrow]

I don't support widening the 174 but I hate the concept of tolling existing roads - if you want tolls - build something new. For tolls entering Ottawa - lets toll all those urban dwellers leaving the city on the weekend clogging the country roads as they seek nature, peace and quiet! Tit for tat!

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

I don't support widening the 174 but I hate the concept of tolling existing roads - if you want tolls - build something new. For tolls entering Ottawa - lets toll all those urban dwellers leaving the city on the weekend clogging the country roads as they seek nature, peace and quiet! Tit for tat!

That would be fine by me. I'm all for using market forces to encourage people to live sustainably.

[Harley613]

'Tolling offers no solution as traffic will find a way around it and create even bigger problems on roads not designed for traffic volumes. We cannot toll every road entering the city. '
nope...its time. we need tolling..why fight the inevitable.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We cannot toll every road entering the city.

Sure we can.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Sure we can.

Absolutely. We can even toll every road in the city: http://www.skymetercorp.com/transport-sectors/roads.html.

(I'm serious, BTW. Roads should be a user-paid service.)

Mind you, I agree with lrt's friend that HWY 174 serves a provincial function and should be re-uploaded.

[lrt's friend]

You do realize that tolling is another step away progressive taxation as tolling has nothing to do with the ability to pay. The impact of widespread tolling will greatly limit the mobility of citizens who have modest incomes. Furthermore, tolling just gives another method for government (or private industry) to extract money from us. It is very difficult to hold politicians accountable for user fees to the same degree as taxation rates.

I think we should think very carefully before repeating history of a 100 years ago when road tolling was common and it did impact mobility in those days. There are some social and economic consequences that we may not fully be able to predict. But it could dramatically impact the sale of vehicles (therefore the auto industry) and ghettoize the poor much more than today.

I am not in favour of grand schemes to implement widespread user fees for the use of public roads.

[lrt's friend]

I am going to throw something else out that seems ludicrous by today's standards, but just think about it.

How much money has the government invested in water and hydro meters? How much money has been invested in water and hydro billing infrastructure? I would say hundreds of millions, maybe more. And then there are ongoing costs of shipping out bills and collecting money. Hundreds of millions more per year? Think of the savings that could be had if we did away with all of that and having these services included in our income or property taxes. I know, there are reasons for metering, for example conservation. But then apply the same thing to widespread road tolling. How much would it cost to administer tolling? I would dare say, millions and millions, and so we end up paying more for the same service. Further bloating of our government bureaucracy.

[teej1984]

lol you cant seriously think that Ottawa needs tolling! This is not the metropolis of London here. People need to get on the bus and be whisked from Orleans to dt in 20 mins #nbd

[J.OT13]

Before implementing tolling, or even such ideas as making the market a car free zone, we need to provide proper alternative ways of transportation i.e. commuter rail, subways and streetcars.

On that note, I have an idea;

What if we extend the OLRT to Rockland?

a. Driving would continue being a hassle

b. Encourage a more sustainable way to the city for the biggest suburb outside OT on the Ontario side.

c. If we built Blair to Rockland in one shot, the province would have to give us 2/3 funding.

d. People from Rockland would make a proper contribution for using OT taxpayer infrastructure buy buying OC Transpo passes (and paying their share of our 1/3 of the project so if 20% of the tracks are in Orleans, then they pay 20% of our 2/3)

I still agree that the 174 should be up-loaded to the province, just not widened.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Before implementing tolling, or even such ideas as making the market a car free zone, we need to provide proper alternative ways of transportation i.e. commuter rail, subways and streetcars.

On that note, I have an idea;

What if we extend the OLRT to Rockland?

a. Driving would continue being a hassle

b. Encourage a more sustainable way to the city for the biggest suburb outside OT on the Ontario side.

c. If we built Blair to Rockland in one shot, the province would have to give us 2/3 funding.

d. People from Rockland would make a proper contribution for using OT taxpayer infrastructure buy buying OC Transpo passes (and paying their share of our 1/3 of the project so if 20% of the tracks are in Orleans, then they pay 20% of our 2/3)

I still agree that the 174 should be up-loaded to the province, just not widened.

Just remember all the opposition of the North-South LRT project as the train to nowhere. If we can't build a train to Barrhaven, how could we ever build a train to Rockland?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just remember all the opposition of the North-South LRT project as the train to nowhere. If we can't build a train to Barrhaven, how could we ever build a train to Rockland?

I was against the N/S back then, but now I realize that even with all its flaws, we would have been better off building the damn thing. A N/S rail running on the streets downtown in 2009 $ would have been cheaper than a N/S rail terminating at Bayview in 2031ish $.

To answer your question, I figure that people would have more support for the Rockland line because it goes thru Orleans first. Furthermore, unless the politicians in TO are a bunch of lying sacs of crap (very possible), they would have to pay 2/3 of the cost since it serves more than one city, so it would likely be cheaper for us (OT taxpayers) to build a line to Rockland than a line terminating in Orleans and widening a highway that would only be used by the citizens of Clarence-Rockland.

[S-Man]

Seriously - tolls in Ottawa? First of all, Stephen Blais is one of the weakest links this council has ever had. Secondly, the province is never going to give Ottawa cash for infrastructure because Toronto is God, pure and simple.

Put those truths together and it doesn't look good. I'd support a widened 174 financed partly through non-Ottawa cash (Province + city of Clarence-Rockland, for starters), but not a toll road. Ottawa residents living within our boundaries pay enough tolls and fees and taxes as it is.