Gore Park

[RePinion]

Note that my above comment was in response to BCTed.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by RePinion

One might be inclined to laugh at the suggestion that such top-end retailers will ever locate to Hamilton. But then look at Manchester. That city was once economically much worse-off than Hamilton and considered the armpit of England. Its was abandoned by retail, full of dreary pubs, prostitutes and drug dealers. Through progressive civic leadership and major cooperation from parliament (not to mention a massive IRA bomb) the city virtually reinvented itself and now it does indeed host shops like Chanel, Gucci, Selfridges, etc. Hamilton can achieve this, in due course.

And let's not forget about the great pedestrian areas incorporated into the new Manchester City you talk about here. Market Street pedestrian zone used to be a stretch of Route A6, a major road crossing much of England and intersecting the heart of downtown Manchester (sound familiar?). Its conversion is credited to turning the downtown around and attracting the shops you talk about, all of which are located on or in close proximity to the all-pedestrian Market Street.

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Put things in place (two-way traffic on King's north leg, south leg closed to vehicles, LRT, public washrooms in Gore, etc.) and then let the neighbourhood decide its own dynamic.

Very well said. I concur. Pedestrianization is not a panacea that will revitalize our downtown. Good fundamentals will have a greater payoff in the long run than any single-minded scheme.

The sooner Hamilton citizens stop waiting for a prince to sweep them away from their scullery maid reality and just get on with the business of making tomorrow a bit better than today, the sooner we will get the city we deserve. Incrementalism is underrated.

[RePinion]

A couple examples of pedestrian areas which could be viewed as successful just doesn't cut it.

A number of your examples are clearly inapt. Sparks Street and Prince Arthur do not bear the same relationship to their respective cities as does King to Hamilton. The distillery district is even further removed from relevance, being an isolated industrial district.

I would defy anyone to name a city which has decided to shut down its major thoroughfare to vehicle traffic and had this prove an unequivocal success.

Moderately successful doesn't cut it either. We're talking about a potentially massive change to the city's dynamic. There had better be some irresistible evidence predicting success before the city takes such a major leap. We do have something of a colourable history in this city of undertaking huge projects rather impetuously - I would hate to perpetuate this.

So far, every aspect of your argument is open to equivocation. Until you surpass that, I don't think the case is made.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Clearly you miss my point.

My suggestion was that an area like Kensington could very well be amenable to pedestrianization - even though Toronto has (wisely, in my view) decided against it. The necessary implication is that an area like King, being a thoroughfare, would not be amenable to pedestrianization.

That being said, King is not quite just a thoroughfare. It is somewhat unique in that it contains the closest thing to a town square we have, as well as a south leg which does seem genuinely amenable to pedestrianization.

Agreed that King William might be a more suitable candidate for pedestrianization, but I wouldn't push for it anywhere in the city yet, save for the south leg of King.

There just isn't compelling evidence to show that pedestrianized areas consistently outperform shared use areas as a means of economic revitalization.

We're on the same page.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by RePinion

I would defy anyone to name a city which has decided to shut down its major thoroughfare to vehicle traffic and had this prove an unequivocal success.

This can probably be readily Googled, but I think I remember a major street in Chicago being closed to vehicular traffic and then being re-opened because the move just did not work. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

[I, Sinclair]

Montpellier, in the south of France has had success with pedestrianization of it's core. Two important differences from Hamilton - it has a dense medieval core, and it is the largest city in the region.

Having lived in Ottawa, I always get a chuckle hearing Sparks street held up as a successful example of pedestrianization. It has nowhere near the vitality of the market or Bank street (another main thoroughfare).

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by BCTed

This can probably be readily Googled, but I think I remember a major street in Chicago being closed to vehicular traffic and then being re-opened because the move just did not work. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

I was thinking of State Street:

"Chicago Gives a Pedestrian Mall the Boot"
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EEDE1739F932A35751C0A960958260

Some quick excerpts:

"Retailers believe opening the street to traffic means more activity," said Laurie Schwartz, president of the Downtown Partnership of Baltimore, which speaks for business interests. "And it reminds passers-by that stores are open for business."

Planners and architects point out that people like to go where other people are going. It did not help that the vast walkway of the mall gave State an empty look, which, together with the absence of cars, "gave it a deadened feel, like a ghost town," said Craig Wolf, a spokesman for the city's Department of Transportation.

"Since people don't drive on State, they forget it's here," said Carmen Rocha, a 24-year-old sales manager who was waiting for a bus at the corner of State and Madison, once said to be the busiest intersection in America. "Hopefully, this will bring the suburbanites and the tourists back into the Loop."

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by RePinion

I would defy anyone to name a city which has decided to shut down its major thoroughfare to vehicle traffic and had this prove an unequivocal success.

Manchester, England. As you described in an earlier post, Manchester's urban renewal was a resounding success. The pedestrianization of Market Street was a key factor in its success. Prior to its conversion, Market Street was part of Route A6, one of Englands cross-country thoroughfares. And it was lined with empty storefronts prior to its conversion. Now it is closed to all traffic save for public transit, emergency vehicles and delivery trucks for its shops. The parallel to Manchester and Hamilton is uncanny. In fact, I believe a couple of councillors recently visted there and Glasgow to see their urban renewal success stories first hand.

As you mentioned yourself just a couple of posts ago, Manchester's successful transformation is unequivocal. Granted, Market Street is just one of a combination of daring initiatives they took on, the other major initiative being their LRT system - which is also an initiative Hamilton is bandying about. As they say across the pond, the proof is in the pudding. Problem is, Hamilton is wrought with people not willing to take the risks needed to bring about change.

[HAMRetrofit]

How about we lift all regulations, except speed, on downtown roads and let people decide how they want to use them? Get rid of everything, traffic lights, turning signals, sidewalks, curbs, designated parking spaces, right of ways, left lanes, and right lanes. Let people park in them the way that they want. Let people bike on them in the way they want. Run a subway under it all. Let the city become a true free market.

Honestly this would stimulate the downtown economy more than anything. There is nothing to lose and it would make the news across North America and Europe.

[RePinion]

I have never heard any one credit the pedestrianization of Market street with Manchester's economic turnaround. It surely goes much deeper than that.

Again, the street's traditional purpose is very different from King's, and is presently dominated by the contiguous Arndale Centre, which provided the real incentive for pedestrianization.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

How about we lift all regulations, except speed, on downtown roads and let people decide how they want to use them? Get rid of everything, traffic lights, turning signals, sidewalks, curbs, designated parking spaces, right of ways, left lanes, and right lanes. Let people park in them the way that they want. Let people bike on them in the way they want. ...

This sounds a lot like roads in certain parts of India.

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

How about we lift all regulations, except speed, on downtown roads and let people decide how they want to use them? Get rid of everything, traffic lights, turning signals, sidewalks, curbs, designated parking spaces, right of ways, left lanes, and right lanes. Let people park in them the way that they want. Let people bike on them in the way they want. Run a subway under it all. Let the city become a true free market.

Honestly this would stimulate the downtown economy more than anything. There is nothing to lose and it would make the news across North America and Europe.

It's difficult to gauge sarcasm on the internets, but this approach has met some success in the Netherlands (where else?) in the town of Drachten. Google for all the details.

[RePinion]

I should mention again that I'm not opposed in principle to pedestrianization. Offering up any number of successful examples doesn't really prove much - other than that the strategy has worked, to varying degrees of success, elsewhere. The real argument needs to show that pedestrianization will substantively aid in the economic resuscitation of Hamilton's downtown.

I wish we could have something like Market Street in Hamilton. But keep in mind that it's effectively just an outdoor mall and tourist draw. I would rather keep King street as a vital avenue running through the city, rather than cutting it off.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Again, the street's traditional purpose is very different from King's

How so? Prior to its pedestrianization, Market Street was to A6 and downtown Manchester what King Street is to Highway 8 and downtown Hamilton. Market Street was the main thoroughfare in downtown Manchester. It was part of a cross-country secondary highway system, and businesses located on market Street were in serious economic decline prior to its conversion. Practically identical to King Street in Hamilton.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

It's difficult to gauge sarcasm on the internets, but this approach has met some success in the Netherlands (where else?) in the town of Drachten. Google for all the details.

Why can't Hamilton be a leader for once and do something like this? Something completely new. Something that completely reinvents it.

I am being serious now. Why does downtown Hamilton have to be a follower? Why can't it be a leader in everything that it does?

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by RePinion

The real argument needs to show that pedestrianization will substantively aid in the economic resuscitation of Hamilton's downtown.

We should also consider the marginal benefit. Time and money spent on studies and infrastructure might be better invested in trying to get some decent post-industrial jobs in the core.

Hamilton has unrivaled natural surroundings (for Ontario anyways), a beautifully compact core, a remarkable inventory of commercial and residential architecture. Create enough white collar jobs and the city will find it's own way to success. If we don't, it won't matter how many blocks of King we close to traffic.

[I, Sinclair]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Why can't Hamilton be a leader for once and do something like this? Something completely new. Something that completely reinvents it.

I am being serious now. Why does downtown Hamilton have to be a follower? Why can't it be a leader in everything that it does?

I suppose because it's already been done. Some German town put a playground in the middle of the street in order to force drivers to slow down.

I think the idea has a lot of merit. Modern traffic engineering clearly prioritizes cars over every other mode. Anything that helps rebalance that is ok by me.

[HAMRetrofit]

No one has a 10000 tonne piece of steel placed in the middle of the street.


Think of how many tourists would come see a 1000 tonne block of steel in the middle of the street.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by I, Sinclair

I suppose because it's already been done. Some German town put a playground in the middle of the street in order to force drivers to slow down.

I think the idea has a lot of merit. Modern traffic engineering clearly prioritizes cars over every other mode. Anything that helps rebalance that is ok by me.

Modern traffic engineering is the largest chunk of crap ever conceived of. In fifteen years these will be the people panhandling the streets of Ancaster.