Rural Commuter Rail

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It can be done with electro-diesel technology.

Are there light rail versions of such? That would be useful for a long-term commuter rail system, allowing for peak-period extensions to distant communities at relatively low cost on the same system as the main line. For example, if the LRT was to be extended to Kanata, dual-mode trains could be used on the same line, converted to diesel to run to, say, Arnprior and Carleton Place.

[electricron]

If the O train was extended northward across the bridge, it shouldn't need to run in the light rail subway. Besides, I doubt they would fit anyways, because light rail and commuter rail (O trains) are different - different body strengths, different maximum grades, different minimum turning radii, different floor heights, different widths, different heights, and last I'll mention - different types of propulsion. Let passengers transfer, just like the existing O train passengers from the south will.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by electricron

If the O train was extended northward across the bridge, it shouldn't need to run in the light rail subway. Besides, I doubt they would fit anyways, because light rail and commuter rail (O trains) are different - different body strengths, different maximum grades, different minimum turning radii, different floor heights, different widths, different heights, and last I'll mention - different types of propulsion. Let passengers transfer, just like the existing O train passengers from the south will.

Those going from the south to work in Gatineau would have a much shorter trip (saving time, and in most cases, a transfer), as would Carleton University students and especially Canada Post/Confederation area federal employees living in Gatineau (they could transfer directly from Rapibus once completed, saving one or two transfers).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by electricron

If the O train was extended northward across the bridge, it shouldn't need to run in the light rail subway. Besides, I doubt they would fit anyways, because light rail and commuter rail (O trains) are different - different body strengths, different maximum grades, different minimum turning radii, different floor heights, different widths, different heights, and last I'll mention - different types of propulsion. Let passengers transfer, just like the existing O train passengers from the south will.

This makes zero sense. Running both commuter rail and light rail to bypass the most important transit destination in the city, downtown. This guarantees significantly lower ridership and why make 90% of your passengers transfer? You still will need enough trains for them to travel into downtown so why not turn the trains and run them into the tunnel? The reason why the O-Train has been such a success is because it provides direct service into Carleton University. If it had bypassed Carleton by 3 kms just as you are suggesting for downtown, it would be next to useless. Rail service must hit the most important transit destinations. There is very little demand for transit between the south end and Gatineau and visa versa.

Rural commuter rail is going to be problematic because of a lack of suitable track for this kind of train to reach downtown. This will limit its financial viability. Making people transfer to reach the centre of the city is going to affect the reliability of the system. If there is a chance of missing that one commuter train going home (and leaving you stranded) because of some problem travelling from downtown, it will quickly lose its appeal. Toronto and Montreal succeed with commuter rail because they have downtown rail stations and because there is a large enough customer base to justify multiple trips on each rail line.

[McC]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This makes zero sense. Running both commuter rail and light rail to bypass the most important transit destination in the city, downtown. This guarantees significantly lower ridership and why make 90% of your passengers transfer? You still will need enough trains for them to travel into downtown so why not turn the trains and run them into the tunnel? The reason why the O-Train has been such a success is because it provides direct service into Carleton University. If it had bypassed Carleton by 3 kms just as you are suggesting for downtown, it would be next to useless. Rail service must hit the most important transit destinations. There is very little demand for transit between the south end and Gatineau and visa versa.

Rural commuter rail is going to be problematic because of a lack of suitable track for this kind of train to reach downtown. This will limit its financial viability. Making people transfer to reach the centre of the city is going to affect the reliability of the system. If there is a chance of missing that one commuter train going home (and leaving you stranded) because of some problem travelling from downtown, it will quickly lose its appeal. Toronto and Montreal succeed with commuter rail because they have downtown rail stations and because there is a large enough customer base to justify multiple trips on each rail line.

The way I see it, unless it's at the corner of Bank and Slater, a lot of downtown would always be a few kilometres from any rail station, and a large proportion of riders would want to transfer anyway (especially if the line isn't a kilometre underground with stations a kilometre apart). given the 10,000-year timeline we're working on for our rail plans anyway, by the time these things are built, Bayview could very well be "as downtown" as the rail stations in many other cities: proximal to some, but a transfer and couple of stations away from most people's "downtown destination"

[Kitchissippi]

People at the Eaton Centre in Toronto don't walk to Union Station, they take the subway for a few stops. I just don't understand why people think that intercity or rural trains HAVE to end up downtown at all cost. Even if we revived the old downtown train station, people are not going to walk to a hotel out on Kent street.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

People at the Eaton Centre in Toronto don't walk to Union Station, they take the subway for a few stops. I just don't understand why people think that intercity or rural trains HAVE to end up downtown at all cost. Even if we revived the old downtown train station, people are not going to walk to a hotel out on Kent street.

There is a big difference between what you describe in Toronto and putting the commuter rail station some distance from downtown, like the Via Rail Station. In the event of a subway closure, someone could walk from the Eaton Centre to Union Station. If you work on Bay Street, you would simply walk anyway. At the Via Rail station in Ottawa, essentially nothing is within walking distance. Also, with multiple rail trips, if you miss one, you are still not stranded. Go Transit also offers bus trips after the final rail departure. Eastern Ontario's low population density would likely not allow multiple trips.

It is going to be a hard sell for commuter rail in Eastern Ontario without a downtown train station, and with the very limited population base. This is exactly why we have no commuter rail today. I am not against it, but Ottawa's situation will make it difficult to succeed.

I have a friend who lives up in the Gatineau. She uses the bus. There is one round trip. The only way it works for her is because her job is downtown and the bus goes downtown. At one point, her job was to move near the Via Rail Station. That would have made using the bus unfeasible because of the difficulty of getting to and from downtown within the time constraints of the one bus trip. This same problem would affect commuter rail.

[Watchman]

March 12, 2012
Saw the return of rail construction equipment to the Ottawa Valley Railway. The Rail train is expected next week and removal of the rails from Renfrew to Smiths Falls will begin.

[Watchman]

The last train has left Renfrew on the CP line heading towards Smiths Falls, taking all rail with it. By next week they will be at the Castleford crossing where the last siding is located west of the Madawaska River in Arnprior.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by Watchman

The last train has left Renfrew on the CP line heading towards Smiths Falls, taking all rail with it. By next week they will be at the Castleford crossing where the last siding is located west of the Madawaska River in Arnprior.

This is a tragedy, the scope of which is yet to be discovered.

[Aylmer]

Concerning the issue of no Downtown station, I'd suggest looking at either the old Eddy building(s) directly in front of Terrasses de Chaudière which has access to rail off of the Prince-of-Whales bridge or even the Krüger plant beside the museum of Civilisation.
The rail line could be sunken under or beside boulevard Laurier (a shallow cut-and-cover) and we could have a station with a view and location.

Just dreaming, I guess, but the idea of a smaller station under the Eddy buildings isn't totally unreasonable. Those historical factories are just waiting for someone to use them and the infrastructure is already there!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Just dreaming, I guess, but the idea of a smaller station under the Eddy buildings isn't totally unreasonable. Those historical factories are just waiting for someone to use them and the infrastructure is already there!

Indeed, just dreaming.

Many people have been having that dream for a decade or more. Some day it will end when they demolish the lovely old buildings and pave the Prince of Wales Bridge for yet another stupid busway.

[Aylmer]

Actually, because of provincial regulation and heritage status, neither the Eddy Factory nor the rails on the PoW Bridge can be destroyed. I'll agree that it's unlikely that it'll happen, but the possibility wíll remain open.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, because of provincial regulation and heritage status, neither the Eddy Factory nor the rails on the PoW Bridge can be destroyed. I'll agree that it's unlikely that it'll happen, but the possibility wíll remain open.

The City of Ottawa owns the PoW Bridge. Who owns the old Eddy building?
Does the bridge really have heritage status? Federal or provincial?

[Aylmer]

The Bridge doesn't, but if I remember correctly, the Eddy building does. As for the PoW bridge, I don't quite know how it would work out since it isn't totally in Québec, but I read a few years ago in the local paper that they couldn't remove the tracks in the case of the Rapibus since it had become almost illegal to remove tracks. Hence solutions like the RR bridge spanning the Gatineau river which have been turned into a busway with rails in the road (tramway-style).

I can't seem to find the law on Transport Québec's website - does anyone know anything more about it?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, because of provincial regulation and heritage status, neither the Eddy Factory nor the rails on the PoW Bridge can be destroyed. I'll agree that it's unlikely that it'll happen, but the possibility wíll remain open.

Since when have regulations or status ever prevented a heritage building from being demolished?

[J.OT13]

From Aylmer

Actually, because of provincial regulation and heritage status, neither the Eddy Factory nor the rails on the PoW Bridge can be destroyed. I'll agree that it's unlikely that it'll happen, but the possibility wíll remain open.

They might not get demolished, but they will fail soon enough if the Governments/Domtar keep neglecting their properties.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Since when have regulations or status ever prevented a heritage building from being demolished?

The federal government can designate its own buildings as heritage. Both Ontario and Quebec can also designate their own buildings and provincial crown land as heritage. Then municipalities in both provinces can designate buildings, monuments and landscape as heritage under provincial laws by means of a by-law. (not sure about Quebec!) That means that Ontario cities can repeal their bylaws to undesignate and if it's OK with the Provincial Minister and follows the Heritage Act, it's OK. (I'm not a lawyer so I could be very wrong!)
Bottom line, you cannot willfully demolish a designated building unless by accident or safety reasons or it no longer is designated.
That's what Ottawa did to the Horticulture Bldg at Lansdowne to be able to move it. The Ontario Heritage Act considers moving as demolishing.
******
I have heard or read somewhere that the City of Ottawa owns the PoW bridge including the abutments on the Quebec side (which means that Quebec cannot sort of detach the bridge and throw it in the water if it wanted to). Don't know about removing tracks off the bridge, though. Could it be a structural problem?

[McC]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Don't know about removing tracks off the bridge, though. Could it be a structural problem?

there are very strict federal regs about decommissioning a rail line. a summary:
- The process for discontinuance of a rail line is spelled out in the Canada Transportation Act: the proposed discontinuance must be in railway’s publicly-accessible plan for 3 years, and the railway must notify the federal Minister of Transport, Canadian Transportation Agency, provincial minister(s), First Nations and any municipalities and public transit authorities along the rail line in question.
- The Canadian Transportation Agency determines net salvage value of the rail line in question, and this rail line must be offered for sale for continued operation (60 days to express interest, 6 months to reach a deal). If there is no deal, the rail line must be offered to public stakeholders (in the order listed above) for the net salvage value (they have 30 days to express interest, 90 days to reach a deal).
- Once all of these options are exhausted and the time has expired, the rail line can be discontinued (i.e. once every step to divest the asset has been completed unsuccessfully, the final option is closure).

this is why it's such a tragedy that rail lines continue to be ripped up across the region, because the federal legislation/regulations go to great lengths to make it easy for someone else to take over the rail line and to continue operating it for rail service. All you need is to be willing to buy it for salvage value (which is admittedly getting more expensive with rising global steel prices, but still).

[waterloowarrior]

South Mountain Stagecoach Transit having a difficult time competing against rural park and rides
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Joanne+...medium=twitter