Housing Choices - where you choose to live

[floobie]

Hm... you both raise good points. I won't pretend to be anything close to an expert, and I'll sooner just say "I don't know" in a case like this. But, that doesn't mean I can't spew a few random, not particularly well-thought out ideas that came to mind:

- If the bigger nodes can be somewhat industry specific, I think that would help. Have a financial services node, an energy node, an academic node, a health care node, etc. This means that for one person, they can easily buy a residence while knowing that their place of work isn't going to change dramatically over the years. Granted, this wouldn't help with dual income households where each income comes from a different node. (Any Sim City/Cities XL nerds feel like modelling this ?)

- It really baffles me that telecommuting isn't WAY more prevalent than it is right now. I could EASILY do my job from home. All I need is a computer and remote access to Accumap. I could say the same for basically everyone I know. To that end, in the past one could argue that having industry specific nodes would be troublesome because the industries do need to interact and communicate. But, for most things, isn't a simple phone call, conference call, video chat, or e-mail sufficient?

[sim]

Originally Posted by fusili

I agree 100%. I live downtown. I love living downtown. I also work downtown. However, I don't have anything against people who choose to live elsewhere. That is their perogative.

I just find that most people who criticize downtown living have never done it. They will complain about the size of the units, without ever living in a space of that size. They complain about the noise, without knowing what it is like. They complain about crime, but have no idea how safe the area actually does feel.

On the other hand, in places like Calgary, most of the people living downtown have also had the experience of living in the burbs- myself included. I like downtown and can say that I do, because I have experienced both, and quite frankly, I hate suburban living.

Which, incidentally, at least in regards to the noise of traffic and arguably the most ubiquitous and disruptive, is caused by the very people that bemoan it or those areas where it is prevalent... Go figure.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by floobie

Hm... you both raise good points. I won't pretend to be anything close to an expert, and I'll sooner just say "I don't know" in a case like this. But, that doesn't mean I can't spew a few random, not particularly well-thought out ideas that came to mind:

- If the bigger nodes can be somewhat industry specific, I think that would help. Have a financial services node, an energy node, an academic node, a health care node, etc. This means that for one person, they can easily buy a residence while knowing that their place of work isn't going to change dramatically over the years. Granted, this wouldn't help with dual income households where each income comes from a different node. (Any Sim City/Cities XL nerds feel like modelling this ?)

Great points, especially about the industry-specific nodes. I think we have that developing (downtown- Energy, Finance; Beltline- design, non-oil and gas energy; Research park- duh, research' Hospitals- medical), but I think we need to reinforce it and most importantly, connect it to transit.

Sorry to jump on you about that. I did an incredible amount of research on that very topic, so sometimes I might come off as over-argumentative. But lots of studies (ok, like 5) have been done on the multi-nodal vs. centric models of cities. From what I remember, the transportation mode split is much better for centric cities. I think there was a Dutch study on this that said basically that.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by suburb

<snip>

What did you do when you were a kid? Oh wait, you would have had home cooking then!

Regarding the commuting argument, it is in general terms a false argument as only 1/6 of Calgary workers work in the DT zoo.

They're only a recent development

As to commuting, for me it is a personal preference, and as polishavenger mentions the reverse commute, while less desirable to me is still better than the full rush hour experience transit or otherwise, it's likely that at some point I may end up doing the reverse commute again, and I will do my best to avoid driving if at all possible

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Im in Bridgeland and love it there. Being central helps reduce the commute to wherever a job might take me, and since Im at the focal point of rush hour traffic, im heading counter flow both in the morning and evening. The transit infrastructure is also as good as it gets in this city.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by floobie

I can safely assume that, should I continue with my current career, I'll always be working downtown (or the Beltline). So, that makes long-term planning in that regard pretty easy

I do hope Calgary becomes a bit more multi-nodal in the coming years. Indeed, not everyone wants to live in the "zoo" , but they should still have the opportunity to live near their workplace.

Based on my last few years of experience with the Beltline, I think I quite like the area. I know people who haven't been there for 10 years or so and assume it's still a crime-infested hole... assuming it ever really was? It's clearly still developing, but it's a nice area to just walk around. I've done it in the middle of the day and at 1 in the morning, and never felt anything but safe.

Living near and working in the "ZOO" (the new name for downtown apparently) is one of the best life changes I ever made. For everything you give up, you gain back extra in other areas of life; plus, you really do meet some great people down here. I will continue to live where I can walk to most things. Daily exercise is very important to having a great healthy life (and retirement). Being stuck in a car and living the rat race everyday is not my idea of living.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Living near and working in the "ZOO" (the new name for downtown apparently) is one of the best life changes I ever made. For everything you give up, you gain back extra in other areas of life; plus, you really do meet some great people down here. I will continue to live where I can walk to most things. Daily exercise is very important to having a great healthy life (and retirement). Being stuck in a car and living the rat race everyday is not my idea of living.

There is a reason why Manhattan has the lowest rates of obesity in the US. Walking.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I'm not talking about one person who lives with their parents still, I'm talking about all the people who buy a house 20km from their office downtown.

Sorry - didn't know you had diverted from the actual discussion we were having.

I agree it is silly to buy a house 20km from your place of work, hence my 'scratching head' with respect to people who purchased by the south hospital and complain about getting to downtown.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

I just find that most people who criticize downtown living have never done it. They will complain about the size of the units, without ever living in a space of that size. They complain about the noise, without knowing what it is like. They complain about crime, but have no idea how safe the area actually does feel.

On the other hand, in places like Calgary, most of the people living downtown have also had the experience of living in the burbs- myself included. I like downtown and can say that I do, because I have experienced both, and quite frankly, I hate suburban living.

I find this a strange comment. Most people I know have lived, at some point in their life, in multi-family housing. Student dorms, that first apartment, something. We know full well what the size, noise, etc is like, and we choose differently than you. Not out of ignorance as you imply, but out of different priorities. I know very few people who dislike "downtown" as a location (sure there's the odd "OMG crime!" moron out there), it's just that it has no suitable housing for many of us.

Or is Calgary chock-full of kids who leave their parents' suburban homes and immediately move into their own SFH when they're 21? I'll admit that this is a distinct possibility in an oil-rich city, but I've certainly never met many like this.

I've done a pretty careful analysis of how I'd live in a similarly-priced condo in the core. I'd either have to get rid of a lot of my outdoor hobbies, or start putting a lot of stuff in storage lockers. And have the thrill of an elevator ride every time I wanted something. Not insurmountable, but it's definitely something that I'd be "giving up" - the convenience of the extra space a house affords. And for what? The ability to eat out more conveniently? More places I can walk home drunk from? (Stereotyping a lifestyle choice to marginalize opinions differently than our own is soooo easy, ain't it? )

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by suburb

I agree it is silly to buy a house 20km from your place of work

I'm still trying to figure out where this large pool of families is that can just up and move halfway across a city every time one of the wage-earners changes jobs.

I'm also surprised that public transit stopped working over the weekend and everyone is now sitting in rush hour traffic to get to work, it sounds awful

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I find this a strange comment.
Or is Calgary chock-full of kids who leave their parents' suburban homes and immediately move into their own SFH when they're 21? I'll admit that this is a distinct possibility in an oil-rich city, but I've certainly never met many like this.

Understandable. I was born and raised in Calgary and I can tell you there are a lot, I mean a lot, of people who go straight from living with the parents to buying (or renting) a single detached. Also, a lot of University students live with their parents in Calgary.

A considerable amount of people I knew in High School did this. Probably a considerable majority. Maybe not buying a single detached, but at least a semi. Those that didn't go to University got a job, lived with the parents until they could buy a house and then moved out. Those that went to university lived with the parents, got a job and then bought a house, just a little later. Many of my friends chose to live downtown, but most others I knew didn't.

Or they buy a condo in some place like RedHaus in Royal Oak and say "condo living sucks." Yeah, well condo living in a suburb is I don't know if Calgary is unique in this way, but many people have no experience other than living in the burbs.

[polishavenger]

Im fairly sure most people, including myself, would opt to buy a single family home if money was not an issue and they could chose the ideal location. For example, I would be the first to buy a nice SFH in Mount Royal, Sunnyside, or Hillhurst if I could afford it (key word is nice, there are a lot of chicken coup sized places from the turn of the century in these neighborhoods for less than $500k). The proximity to all things urban is no different than having a condo/townhouse in those areas, and you get the space, privacy, and yard a SFH provides.

What it comes down to is what people are willing to sacrifice. Im willing to sacrifice a combination of some space, yard, and a little discretionary income to gain lifestyle and convenience, while others are wililng to sacrifice time, lifestyle and stress in order to get more space, some extra spending cash and their own chunk of land.

Originally Posted by freeweed

I find this a strange comment. Most people I know have lived, at some point in their life, in multi-family housing. Student dorms, that first apartment, something. We know full well what the size, noise, etc is like, and we choose differently than you. Not out of ignorance as you imply, but out of different priorities. I know very few people who dislike "downtown" as a location (sure there's the odd "OMG crime!" moron out there), it's just that it has no suitable housing for many of us.

Or is Calgary chock-full of kids who leave their parents' suburban homes and immediately move into their own SFH when they're 21? I'll admit that this is a distinct possibility in an oil-rich city, but I've certainly never met many like this.

I've done a pretty careful analysis of how I'd live in a similarly-priced condo in the core. I'd either have to get rid of a lot of my outdoor hobbies, or start putting a lot of stuff in storage lockers. And have the thrill of an elevator ride every time I wanted something. Not insurmountable, but it's definitely something that I'd be "giving up" - the convenience of the extra space a house affords. And for what? The ability to eat out more conveniently? More places I can walk home drunk from? (Stereotyping a lifestyle choice to marginalize opinions differently than our own is soooo easy, ain't it? )

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

What it comes down to is what people are willing to sacrifice. Im willing to sacrifice a combination of some space, yard, and a little discretionary income to gain lifestyle and convenience, while others are wililng to sacrifice time, lifestyle and stress in order to get more space, some extra spending cash and their own chunk of land.

Bingo. I'm willing to sacrifice a few minutes each workday, for the multitude of convenience living outside a dense urban core affords. Defining "convenience" is really the key - I couldn't give a shit if I had a bar within walking distance, but that's a huge factor for many. Just as I cannot stand having to take multiple elevator rides loaded down with groceries, but a lot of people don't seem to mind. Of course when you're eating out constantly I guess that's less of a concern.

It depends on what's important to an individual. A forum like this, most folks are younger, less likely to be married, and most likely childless. More interested in a Saturday night out than a quiet sleep. More willing to put up with a lunatic condo board's decision than driving a couple of extra minutes to pick up a pizza.

If it were just about knowing what it's like to live in a downtown condo, folks like Bigtime wouldn't be moving out the second they start up a family. I'm pretty sure he knows full well what downtown condo life entails, and was a big proponent of it. Until things changed in his life and his priorities changed. Calgary will be interesting to look at in 20 years' time, when we've had tens of thousands of people living in downtown highrises for decades. Will they stay this time?

Now if only I could afford an $800,000 inner-city house.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'm still trying to figure out where this large pool of families is that can just up and move halfway across a city every time one of the wage-earners changes jobs.

I'm also surprised that public transit stopped working over the weekend and everyone is now sitting in rush hour traffic to get to work, it sounds awful

I wonder if there would be more of these people if they truly understood the cost of a vehicle and driving 40-60 kms per day (0.30/km = $12-18/day, plus parking), as well as the highly uncalculable implications of not spending more time at home

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Bingo. I'm willing to sacrifice a few minutes each workday, for the multitude of convenience living outside a dense urban core affords. Defining "convenience" is really the key - I couldn't give a shit if I had a bar within walking distance, but that's a huge factor for many. Just as I cannot stand having to take multiple elevator rides loaded down with groceries, but a lot of people don't seem to mind. Of course when you're eating out constantly I guess that's less of a concern.

It depends on what's important to an individual. A forum like this, most folks are younger, less likely to be married, and most likely childless. More interested in a Saturday night out than a quiet sleep. More willing to put up with a lunatic condo board's decision than driving a couple of extra minutes to pick up a pizza.

If it were just about knowing what it's like to live in a downtown condo, folks like Bigtime wouldn't be moving out the second they start up a family. I'm pretty sure he knows full well what downtown condo life entails, and was a big proponent of it. Until things changed in his life and his priorities changed. Calgary will be interesting to look at in 20 years' time, when we've had tens of thousands of people living in downtown highrises for decades. Will they stay this time?

Now if only I could afford an $800,000 inner-city house.

I would agree with you on the lifestyle issues. When I decide to get kids, I will probably move out of a condo (at least when the kid is 2 or so). I would like to live in a townhouse, but we will see. But, like you, I will definitely be taking the train when I do.

What I do not understand, however, is a single, young, professional who works downtown, loves going out, loves culture, but lives in a four bedroom house by themselves in the burbs.

[Jimby]

why do you need a house?

[5seconds]

I live in a 1960s bungalow in Lakeview. I bought the house when I still loved in London, England, and wasn't sure when I would actually move back here. We moved faster then we expected, and moved in without a stick of furniture to our names (we shipped boxes of things, but sold all of our furniture.)

I had always lived in the SW, and almost all of my family live there, so I looked at only SW neighbourhoods, including Kilarney, Rosccarock, Wildwood, North Glenmore Park and Glamorgan, but we really liked the area and feel of Lakeview. We loved the park and the reservoir. We knew we would be having kids, so it worked out well with the schools and parks, but we weren't thinking of that when we bought. I also knew what the traffic and distance to downtown was like south of the reservoir, so we limited our search to the SW, but north of the reservoir.

My wife and I didn't have jobs when we moved here, so we didn't know where we would be working. I didn't even know how to drive (at 27 years old) so I had to learn pretty quickly. I worked first in Sunalta, and now Inglewood, so the commute got worse after the office moved, but is still not terrible.

Overall, we love the area. Coming from London, I miss the ability to walk to stores and pubs and restaurants and the underground, but we knew we were giving that up when we moved. The house (1167 ft2, but HUGE compared to the 1 bed flats we rented until we bought!) was nice and large for the 2 of us, the backyard and detached garage was unimaginable in London. We made the decision to give up the full urban living for something more quiet. 5 of the 6 flats we lived in had huge noise issues that affected the quality of our home (and life) and I vowed to never live below anyone ever again.

Transit in Lakeview is OK. Express buses that stop a little too early, but good and direct. Slower service to Chinook LRT and downtown/MRU are good too. Road connections are good, with Crowchild, Glenmore and Sarcee right around here. Regional shopping not bad, with Chinook/Macleod and Signal Hill not too far away by car.

Ring Road issues aside, my wife and I could see living the rest of our lives here. We are only the 3rd owner of our house, the first stayed for 15 years, he next for 28 years. Many of our neighbours are original owners from the 1960s. Good community spirit. I know about a quarter of the people on my street, and there are lots of kids around. Probably 16 kids in a 40 house street.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

I wonder if there would be more of these people if they truly understood the cost of a vehicle and driving 40-60 kms per day (0.30/km = $12-18/day, plus parking), as well as the highly uncalculable implications of not spending more time at home

Ask yourself how many people you've known who've deliberately taken the lower-paying job just because it's "closer to home". It's an option that comes up for many of us at some point in our lives, and most decline it. We all want that big paycheque, and damn the consequences.

Lucky/smart downtown dwellers get the best of both worlds, because typically downtown jobs pay more, all else being equal. There's a presumption of the "extra cost" that working downtown brings, and it's often factored into wages. If you live downtown you can have your cake and eat it too.

Oh, one thing we've ignored is the cost of moving itself. It can easily get into the 5 figures for a move once you factor in all expenses. That $12/day isn't that bad if it avoids a move every few years.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'm still trying to figure out where this large pool of families is that can just up and move halfway across a city every time one of the wage-earners changes jobs.

I'm also surprised that public transit stopped working over the weekend and everyone is now sitting in rush hour traffic to get to work, it sounds awful

Who are these people accepting jobs so far from where they live? In choosing a job as much as choosing a house, commute times should be considered. A job may be better than what I have now, but if I have to drive 45 minutes one way to get to it, that will be a very large factor in whether or not I accept the position.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

What I do not understand, however, is a single, young, professional who works downtown, loves going out, loves culture, but lives in a four bedroom house by themselves in the burbs.

Oh man, how I'm with you here. I don't know many but those that I do simply make me shake my head.

I often joke that I'd love to become single again if only to live downtown for a few years and party it up. Some of our newer condos are dead sexy places to live in.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Who are these people accepting jobs so far from where they live? In choosing a job as much as choosing a house, commute times should be considered. A job may be better than what I have now, but if I have to drive 45 minutes one way to get to it, that will be a very large factor in whether or not I accept the position.

Unless you live downtown (cue: downtown living is the best for everyone), pick a quadrant to live in and you have a 75% chance of a given job being far away from you.

Commute time absolutely should be a factor in the decision, but noticing that people in the US regularly drive 90-120 mins to get to work (seriously, a 2 hour one-way commute is surprisingly common!) leads me to believe that either not many people care, or many people simply don't have the multitude of employment opportunities that you and I may have.