Canadian Airport Thread II

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

Obvious to answer to that is China, isn't it?
They had so many flights and connecting passengers into China pre Covid, until that comes back (if ever) they are missing a big part of there operations to get them back to pre covid numbers.

The thing I love about YVR is the breakdown of their passenger stats by region served. Wish other airports did the same. What it allows us to see is that it's not just Asia Pac that is still below 2019 numbers, but Europe and Transborder as well.

Take August 2023. Which is the last month with the breakdown numbers available, and also the busiest month at YVR since August 2019. (2.5 million pax in August 2023 vs. 2.68 million pax in August 2019) So almost there. Problem is, only domestic numbers and Mexico numbers were above August 2019 numbers.

Transborder was still down by ~25,000 in the month vs August 2019
Asia Pac was down ~140,000
Europe was down ~63,000

So yes. China is a big part of it, but Europe+US was down almost 100k as well in the month. That's not an insignificant number.

https://www.yvr.ca/-/media/yvr/docum...passengers.pdf

Originally Posted by kattiff

I thought the term hub and focus was just where an airline puts their crews, their maintenance, their most head starts of the day, the most connection points, certain long hauls or long distances. Just whatever they deem it’s important to their operation

Not really. At least not for that first part.

AC has a pilot base in YWG, and it's not a hub. Until a couple of years ago, AC had a hub in YYC, and yet had no pilot base there.

Unfortunately. the definition of airline hub is pretty vague. Same, or even worse, for focus city.

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

So yes. China is a big part of it, but Europe+US was down almost 100k as well in the month. That's not an insignificant number.

https://www.yvr.ca/-/media/yvr/docum...passengers.pdf

The down in Europe can probably explained by:
- WS pulling YVR and BC-Europe traffic trough YYC
- AC funnel more European passengers through YYZ/YUL instead of YVR
- TS pull out of YVR-Europe business altogether, and funnel everyone through YYZ/YUL

These 3 probably contributed to the increase in domestic traffic at YVR, plus cheap flight offerings with the ULCCs.

The down in US should also be caused by the first 2 items above, plus the down in traffic to China.

The US traffic will probably back above pre-pandemic number soon, and so does the APAC traffic once flights to China are restored to some degree. But Europe will likely be down until AC/WS/TS strategy changes.

[zahav]

YVR will continue to lag in international recovery for a while I think, they are growing in select markets sure, but losing that China volume is a big deal. I agree with others, it will be a while before this fully rebounds. And YVR will never be flush with European destinations, it's just reality. We will continue to have the biggies like LHR, AMS, CDG, and FRA, but much more than that is unlikely for many reasons. So traffic will grow from pandemic lows but is limited to how much more than that it can get, the offerings are just very basic and stagnant.

It looks like Eurowings is doing some updates, I checked the YYC flights and their flight offerings are duplicating, a telltale sign they are doing some updates. But so far it appears they are going double daily 5x weekly? Again, not sure if there are some duplications or old flights still in their system until it's formalized, but appears they are adding flights? I wonder if WS will ever take on FRA, it is a massive market for YYC, but of course has competition, which many of their other Euro destinations do not. But it would be head and shoulders above some of their other Euro destinations in terms of traffic demand, but they have more competition. If the WS withdrawl from LGW and the AC withdrawal from FRA has shown anything, it's that even major markets have their limits, and cannot absorb infinite capacity. With all of WS's added capacity, Europe is more than well served, and the cut backs on some routes by major airlines show the market is well served and cannot absorb much more capacity. YVR is the same, there won't be much growth in this market in the foreseeable future. And it's even more challenged because WS is working hard to funnel YVR pax thru YYC for all those new routes like Edinburgh, Barcelona, Rome, etc... Not a lot of impetus for growth in non-stop YVR-Europe at the moment. WS is absolutely working to dominate the YVR-YYC market by promoting the YYC destinations to Europe etc. But the fact that LGW got sacked just shows the overall market is well served and there isn't a lot of untapped demand

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

I wonder if WS will ever take on FRA, it is a massive market for YYC, but of course has competition, which many of their other Euro destinations do not. But it would be head and shoulders above some of their other Euro destinations in terms of traffic demand, but they have more competition. If the WS withdrawl from LGW and the AC withdrawal from FRA has shown anything, it's that even major markets have their limits, and cannot absorb infinite capacity. With all of WS's added capacity, Europe is more than well served, and the cut backs on some routes by major airlines show the market is well served and cannot absorb much more capacity. YVR is the same, there won't be much growth in this market in the foreseeable future. And it's even more challenged because WS is working hard to funnel YVR pax thru YYC for all those new routes like Edinburgh, Barcelona, Rome, etc... Not a lot of impetus for growth in non-stop YVR-Europe at the moment. WS is absolutely working to dominate the YVR-YYC market by promoting the YYC destinations to Europe etc. But the fact that LGW got sacked just shows the overall market is well served and there isn't a lot of untapped demand

When WS removed LGW, adding Frankfurt did cross my mind. This being said, I think the yield potential with additional flights to NRT is far greater. Fares from North America to Japan (and East Asia as a whole) are considerably higher than they were pre-pandemic, and WS should probably expand Asian service as much as they can, in order to tap into that red hot market at the moment.

We'll see what they do. With the freed up 787, they can easily make NRT daily, plus add another route like FRA or ATH, or up frequency to BCN, etc.

[casper]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

When WS removed LGW, adding Frankfurt did cross my mind. This being said, I think the yield potential with additional flights to NRT is far greater. Fares from North America to Japan (and East Asia as a whole) are considerably higher than they were pre-pandemic, and WS should probably expand Asian service as much as they can, in order to tap into that red hot market at the moment.

We'll see what they do. With the freed up 787, they can easily make NRT daily, plus add another route like FRA or ATH, or up frequency to BCN, etc.

Sounds like there are two additional 787 with their name paint on the side that they walked away from when Boeing was in trouble on the 787. Perhaps it is time to go kick the tires on those two birds and see if Boeing is willing to give them a deep discount to clear out that dead inventory.

[hollywoodcory]

Eurowings Discover has had YYC-FRA loaded as 12x weekly since September, there's been no schedule changes made. Its basically the 5x weekly they previously served plus the daily service they took over from AC.

WS had strong loads on both LGW/LHR this past summer, so its kind of surprising LGW got out right dropped instead of say reduced.

As for WS, they requested slots for LIS in S24:
https://slotsapi.nav.pt/uploads/slot...lineLISS24.pdf
Presently the slots were denied.

ATH/LIS would be good additions from YYC as neither have much service from Western North America similar to FCO/BCN/EDI.

I've heard rumblings about at least one new route coming, but I'll keep it at that until the information becomes public.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

When WS removed LGW, adding Frankfurt did cross my mind. This being said, I think the yield potential with additional flights to NRT is far greater. Fares from North America to Japan (and East Asia as a whole) are considerably higher than they were pre-pandemic, and WS should probably expand Asian service as much as they can, in order to tap into that red hot market at the moment.

We'll see what they do. With the freed up 787, they can easily make NRT daily, plus add another route like FRA or ATH, or up frequency to BCN, etc.

My prediction is they'll up 2 of NRT and BCN/FCO and add ATH (I'd also say LIS but apparently they got denied the slots)

[SimpleEng]

I'm pretty impressed with YWG's 2023 Q3 pax stats (link).

YWG has 99% of 2019 pax traffic, and even surpassed 2019 levels in August:

• 2023-July - 408,586 vs 2019-July - 423,135
• 2023-Aug - 433,746 vs 2019-Aug - 433,188
• 2023-Sept - 363,370 vs 2019-Sept - 364,774
• 2023-Q3 - 1,205,702 vs 2019-Q3 - 1,221,097

YWG 2023 Q1-Q3 pax traffic is 3.14 million. YOW is not far behind with 3.06 million.

Will YWG be Canada's 6th busiest airport in 2023?

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by nname

The down in Europe can probably explained by:

Whatever the reason, YVR's European network is definitely not trending in the right direction. AC removing ZRH next summer won't help.

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Eurowings Discover has had YYC-FRA loaded as 12x weekly since September, there's been no schedule changes made. Its basically the 5x weekly they previously served plus the daily service they took over from AC.

WS had strong loads on both LGW/LHR this past summer, so its kind of surprising LGW got out right dropped instead of say reduced.

As for WS, they requested slots for LIS in S24:
https://slotsapi.nav.pt/uploads/slot...lineLISS24.pdf
Presently the slots were denied.

ATH/LIS would be good additions from YYC as neither have much service from Western North America similar to FCO/BCN/EDI.

I've heard rumblings about at least one new route coming, but I'll keep it at that until the information becomes public.

Doesn't surprise me about LIS. It's a single runway airport, which is at capacity. Will be very hard for new entrants to get slots.
Indeed ATH would make sense. No service there from anywhere west of Chicago.

Originally Posted by hehehe

My prediction is they'll up 2 of NRT and BCN/FCO and add ATH (I'd also say LIS but apparently they got denied the slots)

I think that's asking for too much.

[thenoflyzone]

GTAA reported Q3 2023.

https://www.torontopearson.com/en/co...ses/2023-11-09

12.5 million passengers in Q3, up 12% from last year. Still only a 88% recovery compared to the same period in 2019.

33.8 million passengers carried during the first nine months of the year. Still only a 87.6% recovery compared to the same period in 2019.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by casper

Sounds like there are two additional 787 with their name paint on the side that they walked away from when Boeing was in trouble on the 787. Perhaps it is time to go kick the tires on those two birds and see if Boeing is willing to give them a deep discount to clear out that dead inventory.

That would be great! But I hear that AVH doesn’t like the 787 and “got stuck with” the 7 in current inventory so I have to wonder if he is at all interested in adding those 2 to the fleet (the third apparently went to AC just in time for them to start up YUL-AMS).

[SignalHillHiker]

Westjet is joining our Premier and other officials for a “significant air access” announcement tomorrow in St. John’s. Presumably it’d be a direct connection to Europe being restored? I can’t imagine the Premier being involved for anything less, and he’s been all but saying “send us the bill, just fucking do it” for a year now.

Attending will be:

Premier
Ministers responsible for tourism, industry
VP External Affairs for Westjet
Mayor of St. John’s
Heads of Hospitality NL, YYT Airport Authority, St. John’s Board of Trade

[thenoflyzone]

^ so I guess now we know what they plan to do with their unused LGW frequency.

[ninjakafi_81]

Air Canada Boosts Capacity to Asia Starting December as Airline Continues International Network Diversification

* Vancouver-Hong Kong operates up to 11 weekly flights beginning mid-Dec.
* Capacity nearly doubles between Canada and Japan this winter
* Vancouver-Bangkok flights operates daily during peak winter months, season extended to early May 2024
* New route to Singapore launches Apr. 2024
* Early seasonal resumption of Osaka service starting May 2024

MONTREAL, Nov. 14, 2023 /CNW/ - Air Canada today announced it is strategically boosting its Asia-Pacific network capacity beginning mid-December through to the end of next summer 2024.

"Air Canada's Asia services continue to reflect strong demand and we are boosting capacity to this geographic area as we deploy our international diversification strategy. This winter we are pleased to offer up to 57 flights per week between Canada and Asia, and up to 64 flights per week next summer. Air Canada will have up to double daily flights to Hong Kong and larger aircraft operating to Shanghai during the December holiday and Lunar New Year travel periods. Capacity to Japan increases by 96% this winter compared to last year. Next spring, seasonal Osaka flights resume earlier and larger aircraft will operate to Narita and Seoul," said Mark Galardo, Executive Vice President, Revenue and Network Planning, at Air Canada.

"Our upcoming launch of our new route to Singapore and increased capacity on our successful Bangkok route underscores our continued commitment to investing in fast-growing markets in Southeast Asia. With the investments we have made at our global hub airports linking Air Canada's extensive North American network to our international flights, travelling between North America and Asia is convenient and compelling for leisure and business travellers alike. We look forward to welcoming customers onboard our flights," concluded Mr. Galardo.

https://media.aircanada.com/2023-11-...iversification

[Dominion301]

Yikes!

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/co...are&utm_term=1

Ground-level windshear?

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

^ so I guess now we know what they plan to do with their unused LGW frequency.

Could also possibly be more than just LGW.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Could also possibly be more than just LGW.

What other city in Canada's without service to London at present that until March 2020 had it? Hmm, I wonder. Not that I'm expecting that city to land a WS MAX to LGW.

I'm pretty sure WS currently hold 4 LGW daily slots, of which 3 were leased out last summer.

The 73G is the perfectly sized aircraft for YYT-LGW. It's also shorter than YYC-YYT.

[Dominion301]

Here's a throwback to 1987 and CP's first ever timetable as Canadi>n.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NAVmt72iY...h/scan0096.jpg

I never knew YQG-YQT was ever flown nonstop. Unthinkable nowadays....even by Flair, lol.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

What other city in Canada's without service to London at present that until March 2020 had it? Hmm, I wonder. Not that I'm expecting that city to land a WS MAX to LGW.

I'm pretty sure WS currently hold 4 LGW daily slots, of which 3 were leased out last summer.

The 73G is the perfectly sized aircraft for YYT-LGW. It's also shorter than YYC-YYT.

My hint was less about others getting LGW and that there might be more than just LGW announced from the east tomorrow.

The only thing I'm still unsure about it what's happening to the newly freed up 787 frame.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Yikes!

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/co...are&utm_term=1

Ground-level windshear?

Yikes ! There is a windsock visible as the plane lands. Looks like a decent crosswind. The plane seemed stable enough a couple of seconds before touchdown. Then it all went to shit.

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Could also possibly be more than just LGW.

I mean, YYT-DUB makes sense as well, while they're at it.

I have to say though, WS flip flopping with their strategy like this is kind of exhausting. I mean, they were serving YHZ-LGW/CDG/GLA and DUB in 2022. Then cut it all. Now re-starting it all from YYT. One has to wonder if management have a clear plan moving forward, or they're just wingin' it as they go.