ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[pdpmishap]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

Lets face it. The night life in this city is DEAD. I firmly believe you have to offer nightlife in order to keep the coveted demographioc that tthis metro wants and is getting. Going to tucker to go to one club over to duluth for another then down Buford highway is ridiculuos. I think the city needs to get club owners residents and police together to form some ideas of where they could put clubs or even create a special zoning called nightlife and figure out ways to make the residents happy(its not cool to be woken up by dumb asses reviving there car or fighting over some ugly whore) and ways to attract people into town to go to these clubs and make it more vibrant.

TYo the gentleman who was mugged. I am so so so so so so so so sorry :-( Please dont let the actions of some terrible good fornothing MF's cause you to leave. This is a good city/metro with many good people who arent ghetto and even who are but have no ill intent in them. What happened to you unfortunantely can happen in San Fransisco New york or West palm Beach. It is a problem with the society at large not the city though it is definitely showing more need for foot patrol officers. Once again I am so so sorry and I hope you and your friend are okay. If you need anything at all let me know

You have to ask yourself why the night life is dead. Beyond the fact that the economy sucks and if you have 80% of new college grads unemployed and living at home, very few are going out and dropping $100/night at the clubs. The real estate boom hit them hard as well w/ rising rents and redevelopment everywhere. Streets of Buckhead destroyed plenty as did 12th & Midtown.

Will a 20,000 sqft club thrive now? Opera is doing well enough but would Vision find another 2-3,000 people a night it needs to do as well? Maybe a little competition would drive down Opera's obnoxious cover charge if you came on a whim. Plus the same owners are remodeling Compound which was doing pretty well before closing as well. Opening both this year would bring in 50,000 sq ft of club space to Midtown but I'm not sure you could find that many people to fill the clubs and it'd be a largely cannibalization of smaller clubs.

The other factor is that people have to feel safe when they're out at the clubs. It's part of the reason why Underground hasn't done great at becoming the club district.

An article foretelling the collapse:
http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/live_tonight_/Content?oid=19118

Another interesting article:
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2006/01/02/story1.html

Big impetus behind Buckhead shutting down was Robin Loudermilk who runs Aaron's which specializes in renting electronics/furniture to people w/ very poor financial planning skills. They also have a wonderful division called Rimco where they rent wheels to those who can't afford chrome wheels but want to look like they can.

I just find some irony that the guy who is perfectly happy to rent wheels to idiots for the weekend doesn't want his customers going to his neighborhood. Given his real estate company also owned all the land Novare properties are on I wonder what his take on Midtown resuming club district status is.

[ls1z28chris]

From a grocery store debate to a night club debate. I see I haven't missed much in the last month.

[Atlwest281]

Atlanta's nightlife died long before the economy tanked. It had nothing to do with economics of the patrons it had to do with drinking laws changing. The clubs could well afford the rents but as the laws changed and ended the party at 3 effectively the lost revenue of the 90 mins or so made it uneconomical to stay. Do I think a 20ksqft club could survive in this economy? Yes I do. There are plenty of cities where nightly is still thriving. People will spend money if they can have a good time, good music, good dancing and decent pricing. I think we could stand for several several more clubs/bars/lounges. There are THOUSANDS who would love to go out but alas there isnt much to offer. I know people who go to Birmingham of all places to club and go to other cities as well. Once we were ranked in the top 5 nightlife scenes in the country behind only NYC Miami LA Vegas now we barely rank in the top 20 inexcusable in a city know for its music scene and its young people. But I do feel that police needs to be stepped up before the issue is revisited. I mean what is the seismic difference between Us and other cities who have thriving nightlifes?

[cybele]

Originally Posted by pdpmishap

Big impetus behind Buckhead shutting down was Robin Loudermilk who runs Aaron's which specializes in renting electronics/furniture to people w/ very poor financial planning skills. They also have a wonderful division called Rimco where they rent wheels to those who can't afford chrome wheels but want to look like they can.

I just find some irony that the guy who is perfectly happy to rent wheels to idiots for the weekend doesn't want his customers going to his neighborhood. Given his real estate company also owned all the land Novare properties are on I wonder what his take on Midtown resuming club district status is.

Doesn't he also own a lot of real estate in Midtown?

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

Atlanta's nightlife died long before the economy tanked. It had nothing to do with economics of the patrons it had to do with drinking laws changing. The clubs could well afford the rents but as the laws changed and ended the party at 3 effectively the lost revenue of the 90 mins or so made it uneconomical to stay. Do I think a 20ksqft club could survive in this economy? Yes I do. There are plenty of cities where nightly is still thriving. People will spend money if they can have a good time, good music, good dancing and decent pricing. I think we could stand for several several more clubs/bars/lounges. There are THOUSANDS who would love to go out but alas there isnt much to offer. I know people who go to Birmingham of all places to club and go to other cities as well. Once we were ranked in the top 5 nightlife scenes in the country behind only NYC Miami LA Vegas now we barely rank in the top 20 inexcusable in a city know for its music scene and its young people. But I do feel that police needs to be stepped up before the issue is revisited. I mean what is the seismic difference between Us and other cities who have thriving nightlifes?

Why does nightlife equate to the club scene? Atlanta's nightlife isn't dead. Maybe the club scene is? I don't know, I don't go out to clubs too much. There's plenty to do in plenty of areas encompassing a wide range of scenes.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by alleystreetindustry

people that have out of date opinions,

Those people always ruin everything.

[Atlwest281]

I dont mean just clubs I mean why cant you just lounge around in the W till 4 with drinks and friends and good times. Because the scene is somewhat dead and the drink flow ends to early. I would love to see like all night cinemas showing art house films and fun lounges and cool updated burlesque shows and just an all together lively night life. But its sporadic and almost non existent. I think the laws, zoning policing and general mindset needs to be revisited. You cannot seek to be a 24/7 city when the scene dries up by 2:30am

[ATLonthebrain]

I've never been to any of the clubs under discussion here, but my comment is this. It has been mentioned that these people do not live in this area, that the City should look out for its residents. Well, if the majority of people who patron these establishments live in the City of Atlanta, but not necessarily in Midtown, where does that argument go? That would make them as much a resident of Atlanta as anyone in Midtown. If they live outside of but work within the City limits, they're probably spending money at area businesses which feeds the City through various taxes. Isn't that a contribution to funding the City's services?

I agree that excessive noise and late-night disruptions on the street can get really old before long, but it is an area which will continue to grow and evolve. Look at what the site housing the former Vision has become. There's no reason to believe that in the next cycle of intown development, the same thing won't occur. That is a prime location for something major to be built when the time is right. In the end it's all about $$$ and nothing else.

I've been in many cities (domestic and international) where the nightlife is much more "LIVE" than in Atlanta. I'm sure they have their fair share of issues to contend with also. Atlanta is not unique in that respect, and is probably in a far better position overall, due to the number of party spots which have been shuddered in recent years and the tightening of curfew at the City establishments which used to be on fire nearly all night long. The Midtown of today is definitely different, but not necessarily better, other than having throngs more residents. If quiet streets and empty sidewalks is what those who have moved into the heart of the city were seeking, I think they made a bad choice. When the weekend comes, the kids come out to play, so to speak, and that's not going to change.

[micropundit]

Buckhead Reporter
August 07, 2009

The Loudermilk family and Buckhead-based Cannon Equities have formed a joint venture, Roxy Capital Partners LLC, to develop and market five prime properties in the Village area of Buckhead that father Charles and son Robin Loudermilk acquired over years.

The Loudermilks' part of the joint venture, which has been in the making for two years and was formalized 12 months ago, is RC Limited — the initials representing the first names of the son and father.

"Over time, the Loudermilk family collected very nice parcels in the Village area of Buckhead," said J. Dwight Bell III of Cannon Equities and Roxy Capital Partners.

The five properties that will be developed and marketed by Roxy Capital Partners, which total a little more than 8 acres of prime Buckhead real estate, are:

• A parking lot of a little over 1 acre adjacent to the Roxy Theatre building on Roswell Road.

• Part of a strip of shops — including Chuck's Firearms, The Fish Hawk, a vacant store that previously was Sofas & Chairs and a small parking lot that previously housed a dry cleaners — on Peachtree Road across from Charles Loudermilk Park.

• A 3½-story green office building on a little more than 1 acres at 359 E. Paces Ferry Road, where Roxy Capital Partners and Cannon Equities have their offices.

• A cleared land site of 1½ acres at 367-371 E. Paces Ferry Road.

• A multifamily garden-style apartment complex on 3½ acres that fronts on both Pharr Road and Buckhead Avenue.

Bell said there are no immediate plans for redeveloping the strip of shops on Peachtree Road, the office building at 359 E. Paces Ferry Road or the apartment complex.

He said the cleared land site at 367-371 E. Paces Ferry Road is planned for redevelopment as a mixed-use product with a small amount of retail and office and/or residential components. He said that development would likely be four to six stories high "with a lot of character in its architecture." He said any development by the joint venture "will be user-driven."

The parking lot site next to the Roxy Theatre was sold a couple of years ago to the Novare Group for a planned hotel/condominium development. But as the economy turned downward, the Loudermilks purchased the site back.

Over the past year or more, Cannon Equities, the development partner in the joint venture, has been working through Neighborhood Planning Unit B and the city's Planning Department to rezone all five of the properties to MRC-3 (mixed-use residential/commercial). Bell said they started with a mixed bag of zoning on the five properties.

He said that with the MRC-3 classification, the properties could have a total of 1.4 million square feet of developed space, but "we do not envision using all that density."

Bell said the joint venture believes in village-scale development, which he defined as being "four to six stories maximum, lower scale, lower density but high quality."

He explained: "The quality of the properties is very important to the partners. The future of the Village is important to Buckhead and to the city of Atlanta."

The Loudermilk name has been synonymous with Buckhead for decades. Charles Loudermilk, who founded Aaron Rents (now Aaron's Inc.), was one of the founders of the Buckhead Coalition and is often referred to as "Mr. Buckhead."

Robin Loudermilk, who is president of Aaron's Inc., was a founder of the Buckhead Alliance and was a point man in the cleanup of the bar scene in the old Buckhead Village, paving the way for The Streets of Buckhead development by Ben Carter Properties.

Robin Loudermilk emphasized that what Roxy Capital Partners does in the Village area "will not be competing with The Streets of Buckhead, but rather will be complementary."

[cybele]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

If quiet streets and empty sidewalks is what those who have moved into the heart of the city were seeking, I think they made a bad choice. When the weekend comes, the kids come out to play, so to speak, and that's not going to change.

There's a big difference between a nightclub and a situation where you've got large rowdy crowds out on the streets in the wee hours, obnoxious cruising, shootings, stabbings, and so forth. You don't have to have all that crap to have a vibrant nightlife. To the contrary, they're really not compatible at all with a good club scene.

It's my understanding that some big clubs are coming into Buckhead and that they've worked things out with the adjoining neighborhoods. Having a nightclub and running wild are not the same thing.

[UVAsuperman]

ABC reports encouraging news regarding intown condos, and I don't think these numbers take into account resales, which have also increased this year over last.

[briantech]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Interesting discussion everyone. I can relate with GThomas because I live right next to Primal, which most of the time is totally fine. The problem is not the night clubs, it's the people that go to them that don't know how to handle themselves. Even with cops on location for the entire night, incidents still happen. Maybe someday we'll get to a point where people can actually go to clubs, enjoy themselves, and go home. This is already the case for most club-goers, but all it takes is one idiot to ruin it for everybody. If Primal is any indication, another Vision would be just as bad as people have described. The way I see it, the only way to keep bad things from happening is to not have a club, since cops clearly can't prevent everything.

Do you live in plaza midtown?

[scpatl4now]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

Atlanta's nightlife died long before the economy tanked. It had nothing to do with economics of the patrons it had to do with drinking laws changing. The clubs could well afford the rents but as the laws changed and ended the party at 3 effectively the lost revenue of the 90 mins or so made it uneconomical to stay.

Its not so much that laws changed as it was that long ignored laws were suddenly enforced...aka Sunday Liquor sales in many of the city's clubs. There was a rather large % of food sales required which very few clubs met but often fudged the numbers by simply having a working kitchen. I cant even fathom the stupidity of enforcing these laws when they had been basically ignored for years. The fact that Sunday night had become a big party night in Buckhead I believe was ultimately to blame. It would be nice to know just how much revenue the city tossed out with the enforcement of the Sunday sales law

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Why does nightlife equate to the club scene? Atlanta's nightlife isn't dead. Maybe the club scene is? I don't know, I don't go out to clubs too much. There's plenty to do in plenty of areas encompassing a wide range of scenes.

indeed...perhaps the night club proper isn't currently as popular (and not just here). there are plenty of places and pockets that remain very lively until late, though almost none of them are in midtown.

[ATLBlaxican]

I think that it is very interesting to say the least that certain forumers keep equating Visions and comparable night clubs such as Compound and Primal to “obnoxious cruising, shootings, stabbings and rowdy crowds.” However, the cite places like Virginia Highlands and the Crescent Ave strip as “acceptable?” I think that it’s just funny that both types of clubs/nightlife bring out certain types of “crowds,” (aka demographics) and everyone seems to be tip-toeing around the fact. It’s just sad to me that even in this day people would make such ignorant, intolerant, derogatory and flat out hateful assumptions about a club that has yet to open. Like many forumers have already pointed out, we chose to live in a city and with that you take the good with the bad. I have no issue with people wanting peace and quiet or to feel safe and secure (as do I), but when moving to a city, it is what it is! It’s like buying a pack of M&Ms and being mad that there are green, brown, red and blue M&Ms when all you wanted was yellow. What did you expect; they always come assorted. If you wanted just yellow then you have to go to a specialty shop that’s conducive to such a liking. To put things in context, you can’t be mad with the “bad” or unwanted aspects of a city when you knowingly knew what to expect in a city, yet still chose to live there.

Again, my issue is not with people not being able to “want” a certain quality of life, but rather with the fact that people are associating reckless, harmful and repulsive behavior with a club that caters to a specific type of people! Then saying that you don’t want an influx of “Thugs,” and “Skanks” with people that ride by in “hopdies with thumping bass” and have “bad tempers.” Who are these people one refers too???? To say such things let alone think them just shows how ignorant and self-centered people can be. Don’t judge and condemn an entire group of people when you know nothing of their culture, traditions and general way of life. How can you honestly make a valid and sound assessment of “Vision-esque” cliental when you can’t even relate to their way of life and how they chose to express their culture? Let me help, you can’t; unless of course you live or have lived that life. I only interject in this discussion because it’s shameful and reprehensible that in this day and age people can still be so naïve and ignorant of others culture and way of life. Just as you have a right to live in a “Safe Midtown” people have the right to build and patronize a club even if it attracts to “obnoxious cruising, shooting, stabbing and rowdy crowds.”

[cybele]

Originally Posted by ATLBlaxican

I think that it is very interesting to say the least that certain forumers keep equating Visions and comparable night clubs such as Compound and Primal to “obnoxious cruising, shootings, stabbings and rowdy crowds.”

Well, that was my phrase, so presumably you're addressing your post to me.

As to obnoxious cruising, shootings, stabbings and rowdy crowds, that's the sort of stuff people have been complaining about. However, I haven't equated it to Vision, Primal, Compound or any other particular nightclub.

However, the cite places like Virginia Highlands and the Crescent Ave strip as “acceptable?”

Er, I haven't mentioned Virginia-Highland or Crescent at all.

I think that it’s just funny that both types of clubs/nightlife bring out certain types of “crowds,” (aka demographics) and everyone seems to be tip-toeing around the fact. It’s just sad to me that even in this day people would make such ignorant, intolerant, derogatory and flat out hateful assumptions about a club that has yet to open.

Why and how are you connecting demographics with obnoxious behavior? I don't see the relationship.

...the fact that people are associating reckless, harmful and repulsive behavior with a club that caters to a specific type of people! Then saying that you don’t want an influx of “Thugs,” and “Skanks” with people that ride by in “hopdies with thumping bass” and have “bad tempers.” Who are these people one refers too????

Who are YOU associating with this behavior? I haven’t heard anyone else associate this kind of conduct with a “specific type of people.” Nor has anyone else made any reference to skanks, thugs or "Vision-esque" clientele.

In my opinion, disruptive and rowdy conduct is culture and race blind. If you've got people cruising in the wee hours in residential Midtown (and yes, it now has a strong residential component) with booming stereos, rambunctious crowds hanging out on the streets, etc., that's obnoxious whether it's Asians, whites, blacks, Hispanics or any combination thereof. The same thing would be true in any residential part of the city.

I still think Underground would be the ideal place for late night clubs. It was specifically designed for that, has a great central location and fantastic access to transit.

[pdpmishap]

Originally Posted by ATLBlaxican

I think that it is very interesting to say the least that certain forumers keep equating Visions and comparable night clubs such as Compound and Primal to “obnoxious cruising, shootings, stabbings and rowdy crowds.” However, the cite places like Virginia Highlands and the Crescent Ave strip as “acceptable?” I think that it’s just funny that both types of clubs/nightlife bring out certain types of “crowds,” (aka demographics) and everyone seems to be tip-toeing around the fact. It’s just sad to me that even in this day people would make such ignorant, intolerant, derogatory and flat out hateful assumptions about a club that has yet to open. Like many forumers have already pointed out, we chose to live in a city and with that you take the good with the bad. I have no issue with people wanting peace and quiet or to feel safe and secure (as do I), but when moving to a city, it is what it is! It’s like buying a pack of M&Ms and being mad that there are green, brown, red and blue M&Ms when all you wanted was yellow. What did you expect; they always come assorted. If you wanted just yellow then you have to go to a specialty shop that’s conducive to such a liking. To put things in context, you can’t be mad with the “bad” or unwanted aspects of a city when you knowingly knew what to expect in a city, yet still chose to live there.

Again, my issue is not with people not being able to “want” a certain quality of life, but rather with the fact that people are associating reckless, harmful and repulsive behavior with a club that caters to a specific type of people! Then saying that you don’t want an influx of “Thugs,” and “Skanks” with people that ride by in “hopdies with thumping bass” and have “bad tempers.” Who are these people one refers too???? To say such things let alone think them just shows how ignorant and self-centered people can be. Don’t judge and condemn an entire group of people when you know nothing of their culture, traditions and general way of life. How can you honestly make a valid and sound assessment of “Vision-esque” cliental when you can’t even relate to their way of life and how they chose to express their culture? Let me help, you can’t; unless of course you live or have lived that life. I only interject in this discussion because it’s shameful and reprehensible that in this day and age people can still be so naïve and ignorant of others culture and way of life. Just as you have a right to live in a “Safe Midtown” people have the right to build and patronize a club even if it attracts to “obnoxious cruising, shooting, stabbing and rowdy crowds.”

I have nothing against the people that patronize Vision. I used to be there all the time and was there for their closing night. It's not a black/white issue...if so I wouldn't have bought a condo within a block of a black gay nightclub after seeing hundreds of black men crowding 7th St at 5am. Vision didn't necessarily deal only in thugs and skanks and the clientèle isn't any different than Compound or Velvet Room which I've been to as well.

People that drop $10-20 for parking, $10-20 for cover, and $50-100 a round of drinks aren't a problem b/c they tend to be inside the club. I've never seen a person pay cover and then decide they need to stand outside the club in the parking lot loitering for more than the time it takes to find the next club or where to regroup. The issue for me given I don't physically live next to the future Vision is that the club is poorly planned b/c it's separated from the club district and putting a club that size on a major roadway is a beacon for cruising and loitering which provide significant negative effects for the city given there are people that aren't spending money outside of gasoline.

Are you telling me that people who don't live in Midtown or necessarily in Atlanta, don't pay taxes and fees on the additional security needed (Midtown Blue), and don't really spend any money in the clubs deserve the right to physically assault each other in the name of having a good time b/c it's the culture? I'm not saying people don't have a right to cruise if they enjoy sitting in traffic and annoying others w/ highly distorted bass beats as long as they're not breaking noise ordinances (which they usually are). I'm saying putting it squarely on Peachtree is a bad idea when other people maybe want to go to Taco Mac, Vortex, Halo, Bulldogs, go to Buckhead or the dozens of restaurant/lounges that line Peachtree. Waiting in line at Compound, I've seen people cruise by multiple times clogging traffic when Compound is the only attraction around.

Inserting a club that holds more people than very large high schools away from the rest of the club district creates a parking/traffic/noise/security issue. I'd love to see Vision open a 30,000 sq ft club nearby if they could build a real club district vs. putting it out there on its own. I remember when Vision faced 112 and there was a constant stream of people jaywalking between the two dodging cars negotiating the 1010 curve. Same basic concept now at Peachtree & 11th since few people will move a car 3 blocks if they hit Opera before Vision and pay $10-20 to park.

Let's say they put Vision in the Crescent area...people can club hop, police can keep the area secure, and cruising is a non-issue since it's indistinguishable from crowd traffic and the only people delayed are club goers. Sure there could be violence as w/ any group of drunk people...2 off duty APD cops started shooting at a cop bar by my old place in Marietta over a girl. The advantage is there are generally fewer people that live on Crescent since it is a backstreet and concentrated w/ clubs already.

[GThomas]

ATLBlaxican - My experience with clubs like Vision, Compound, and Primal (I've been to all of them my fair share) has shown me several types of people "culturally" if you please. They usually also have several theme type nights where you see predominantly one type of crowd. I've seen Indian crowds on hooka-themed nights at Compound, Asian raver crowds at Primal, and Britney Spears at Vision. Pretty good mix I think. One problem is that these clubs produce the same sort of huge, potentially rowdy crowds. Virginia Highlands and Crescent Avenue are more non-thoroughfare districts with strings of smaller establishments where people flow from bar to bar and tend to loiter less after close. The bigger problem here is that these single location mega-clubs serve to strain an understaffed and overwhelmed police force and could potentially pull resources in a Midtown that really needs those right now. It's also likely this block will be redeveloped in the near future. I think Atlanta can start to take on more hotel or restaurant-type bars and dancing. The W and Palomar are two great examples of urban nightlife. Surely Lowe's will have a nice bar/lounge too. A single juggernaut club putting tons of drunk people on the street at closing time might cause some problems.

People know from experience what causes problems for their area, and they have every right to band together to protect their quality of life. At the same time, nightclub owners have the right to try to set up nightclubs. The fact is that there is plenty of space in Atlanta, and something as big as Vision definitely, I think, needs more space.

[ajdelo]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Why does nightlife equate to the club scene? Atlanta's nightlife isn't dead. Maybe the club scene is? I don't know, I don't go out to clubs too much. There's plenty to do in plenty of areas encompassing a wide range of scenes.

I couldn't agree more. As a 35 year old caucasian brother who lives in the 'burbs but thoroughly enjoys working and playing in the city, my idea of a night scene is having some Sapphire and Tonics on a patio overlooking the skyline and city nightlife. The club scene just isn't my thing, but to each his own.

But to Atlwest281's comments about how the city shuts down too early, I have to agree as well. There is nothing more I would like to do than plan a guys night out after a Hawks/Thrashers game in the winter, but you'd only get what, 2 or 3 hours of post-game fun before bars close and last call happens?

And on that note, it's also a shame that public transit stops at midnight/1am no matter what events are going on in the city - sports, concerts, conventions, etc... I went to a Smashing Pumpkins concert last year at the Fox theater with a buddy of mine. After the show, we went to a bar or two in midtown and hung out. When I went to catch MARTA back up to my office in Buckhead, I had completely forgotten that it was closed. No buses, no trains, I couldn't even find a cab. He had to drive me back up to Buckhead before making his treck back down to Peachtree City.

[boomtown]

Pardon the off-topic post, but I thought most people on here would be interested to know of this neighborhood email circulating in Poncey Highlands regarding a nice building on Ponce allegedly being sought after by Chic-Fil-A for a stand alone restaurant, which would mean demolition. Not sure of the validity...anyone know? I love Chic-fil-a but would hate to see that building demoed for a suburban style outparcel treatment on Ponce.....ugh.

977 Ponce de Leon was foreclosed on about 2 months ago. I have found out from a tenant in the building that Chic fil a has put an offer on the 977 Ponce de Leon property. A law firm put an offer on it as well but the fast food chain’s offer was the higher offer.

This is the beautifully restored tan brick and white column commercial building directly across from the Ponce library and where the Frederica traffic light sits. Chic fil a will bulldoze to install one of their fast food restaurants.

If someone else can take the lead I can coach on what we did successfully to save the Excelsior Mill. Best to have as many people as can help under a central leader who can work the city to get 180 day moratorium on demolition (if that is needed at this time). The rest of the volunteers need to be prepared to lobby surrounding neighborhood groups and city council members (District 6 is in a heated battle for that council seat so I am sure there are some candidates who would latch onto this for good grass roots support). It cost $650 to have the third party proposal created – a necessary step in gaining city historic site protection. We should go ahead and ask Ray & Associates to get started on the proposal and write the check.