NEW YORK | World Trade Center Memorial & Transit Hub

[The Grand Architect]

Here's a quick 20 second timelapse video of Ground Zero I made using webcam images from: http://www.malistebde.com/groundzero2011/rgz_000.jpg

This was made yesterday 6/20/11 from 1:00 PM to 7:00 PM EST. The length of time the timelapse shows is 6 hours, so it is only 20 seconds when sped-up. I could have made it 40 seconds long, but it gets choppy and laggy, so I had to stick with 20 seconds.

Well, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ6CAwQEkBY

Subscribe please!

[Traynor]

They are testing the North Pool again today. I look at this image from the HD web camera and can't help but think what a letdown the pools are. I mean look at it... that's it...That's what you're getting. Water going down a drain.



Wouldn't something like this be more emotionally uplifting?


(Screen capture images from KPI TV HD webcam found here: http://evsdatacenter.netfirms.com/kpitv/silver.htm )

[westmc9th]

Originally Posted by Traynor

They are testing the North Pool again today. I look at this image from the HD web camera and can't help but think what a letdown the pools are. I mean look at it... that's it...That's what you're getting. Water going down a drain.
Wouldn't something like this be more emotionally uplifting?

(Screen capture images from KPI TV HD webcam found here: http://evsdatacenter.netfirms.com/kpitv/silver.htm )

I have to respectfully disagree with you, i believe the waterfalls are some of the the most striking memorials in the United States if not the world. They represent tears in a way to me, the thousands of tears shared around the world for New York, Pennsylvania, and D.C/Virginia. I dont think a geyser shooting up would have set the right mood in my opinion i love the current design, also if you look the water has yet to fall over the second void the door is still open down there!

[ethereal_reality]

I have to agree with you Traynor. The pools resemble nothing more than massive drains.

Your idea is a BIG improvement. The column of water shooting skyward reminds me of the old towers.

[wong21fr]

I don't have a problem with the waterfalls as symbols, but the impact of the Coriolis effect on the pools is an issue, i.e. the water circling the drain. The falling water itself provides some decent symbolism in my opinion and doesn't need to change.

One issue with a geyser I could see would be that the steady roar produced could end up being interpreted as the towers continuously falling. I'm not sure that's the symbolism that should be included in the memorial with it's focus on quiet reflection.

EDIT: Maybe it's not the Coriolis effect, I don't have enough knowledge to make an informed opinion. Damn my not paying enough attention in mechanical physics.

[Traynor]

Originally Posted by westmc9th

... also if you look the water has yet to fall over the second void the door is still open down there!

I don't understand this statement.

If the upper waterfalls are running... Where else is the water flowing to? As far as I know it's going down the center squares. That is where the drains and recirculating pumps are.

I will admit that the waterfalls may not be up to full strength yet in this test. The flow rate may indeed be much higher when the falls are in regular operation (which may make the effect more whitewater-like) but for all intents and purposes, this is what it will look like.

[Traynor]

It would be a fountain, continuously flowing, not a geyser shooting up like Old Faithful on the hour. Despite what my quick render implies to some people.

I have been around many fountains of similar size and they almost never roar like collapsing towers. On the contrary, they create background white-noise that calms a noisy, hectic, urban setting and are quite relaxing.

The height of the water could be anything from a few feet above the edge of the pools to 100 feet or or more without getting obtrusive to the serenity of the plaza.

(Speaking of the Coriolis effect... Isn't it Counterclockwise in the Northern Hemisphere?)

[xnyr]

Originally Posted by Traynor

If the upper waterfalls are running... Where else is the water flowing to? As far as I know it's going down the center squares. That is where the drains and recirculating pumps are.

HD webcam from http://evsdatacenter.netfirms.com/kpitv/silver.htm

Actually, I think there is a drain around the upper interior perimeter. That's why those extra pavers were laid out in the pool floor for months. They were reinstalled after the drain was built.

[animatedmartian]

in.formed


in.formed


Phillip Kalantzis Cope


Phillip Kalantzis Cope

[pico44]

Originally Posted by Traynor

They are testing the North Pool again today. I look at this image from the HD web camera and can't help but think what a letdown the pools are. I mean look at it... that's it...That's what you're getting. Water going down a drain.

)

Jesus, get a grip. You're looking at a picture taken from 300 ft up, perhaps we can wait a bit before we consign ourselves to doom and gloom. Or is that statement too threatening to your M.O.

[NYC2ATX]

Yeah, I think this memorial is perfectly appropriate. I don't necessarily want something emotionally uplifting, considering this is memorializing a horrible tragedy where nearly 3,000 people perished. The waterfalls to me represent the cycle of the city, top to bottom and back to the top again. Crest and trough, representing high periods and low periods. The memorial is supposed to be somber and respectful, but peaceful and reassuring. Something showy may come off as mocking what happened there, instead of paying respect to those who died while showing that the city is rising again.

[KevinFromTexas]

On the water fountain thing. I like the idea of water shooting up, just not that high. The idea of something large falling anywhere near that area, even if it is only water, is not really a good idea. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I'd rather it be more graceful/low key than some huge column of water shooting up. Besides, this is New York, not Las Vegas or Dubai.

[Troubadour]

A fountain is a good idea. Perhaps instead of shooting up out of the center, it could shoot inward from the edges? Or maybe both, creating living, fluid sculptures in the air? The "void" concept that we're getting has its merits from many angles and lighting conditions, but it can be also pointlessly horrific from some perspectives - and regardless of the fact that 9/11 was exactly that, it doesn't do anyone any good to perpetuate that feeling. Still, I don't think it will be that big an issue from ground-level, although it may at times create an atmosphere of unease and dread that isn't a good monument to the victims. Only time will tell whether the area ends up as intended, or turns into a place "strong with the Dark Side."

[shaberko]

I think some of you are forgetting about the fact that the memorial will be surrounded by several huge, gleaming skyscrapers. That is the uplifting tribute to the victims.

The voids represent what was lost, but the rest of the site represents the hope for the future.

[The Grand Architect]

Originally Posted by shaberko

I think some of you are forgetting about the fact that the memorial will be surrounded by several huge, gleaming skyscrapers. That is the uplifting tribute to the victims.

The voids represent what was lost, but the rest of the site represents the hope for the future.

This.

While I have mixed feelings about the design relative to the meaning of the memorial, I have no choice but to accept the current concept of the memorial.

While it may seem the names of the victims of 9/11 are "going down the drain", the main concept defined by the architect(s) of this memorial is the complete opposite. Could they have done something to prevent the concept of "going down the drain"? Yes they could- but did they? No.

The whole point of these 2 pools is to create a hole, or void that shows the emptiness and loss that the world received during 9/11. And just as shaberko said, the new WTC towers behind the memorial serves as a symbol of rebirth and hope for the future.

Originally Posted by Kanto

It pains me to even look at those pools. This is honoring the dead? It's an insult to all who died that day! They should have built towering monuments to 9/11 victims, instead, they dug holes. Holes! Two flushing holes! Is that a memorial? In my opinion these holes are symbolic of forgetting 9/11 and flushing it away. And that is disrespectful to the victims and their families.

9/11 should be remembered and not forgotten. The memorial as it was made fails miserably in this function. I heared the pools were quite expensive. From that money they should have built a true monument. Something that would make people who see it remember what has happened there, and something that could be seen from far away.

That's clearly your view on this memorial. Other people, such as family members who loss their loved ones during 9/11 might have thought differently. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. The purpose of these 2 pools is to create a void that was created after 9/11. The names of the people are inscribed in stone slabs placed around the memorial. They aren't going anywhere. Be thankful those names aren't being "flushed away with the water". Of course, you may not agree with this, but that's fine.

As for "flushing it away", the water is reused and brought back to the surface of the waterfall and the cycle repeats. The pools itself are there to provide a visual reminder of how "big" this event was, and is there to remind us of the absence it brought to us.

And about the price, it could have been 100 million, 1 billion, or even 1 trillion dollars for that matter. There should be a memorial built, no matter how big the price tag is. Kanto, it would be an even MORE disrespectful if there wasn't even a memorial built at all. So be thankful there's a memorial built even if it isn't to your liking. I couldn't see a better design if you had me comparing all the designs that were submitted. (About 5,200 entries from 63 different countries)

[aquablue]

I too am disappointed with the design of the memorial. I think it should have been underground or a half-half plan. Some of the memorial area should have been a large pedestrian plaza full of activities and cafes and fountains, done in an Italian style. That way, the life above would symbolize the rebirth of NYC and the continuation of life. Below would remind of of what we have lost. Also, in this way, a large valuable piece of land would be used more effectively long after the lunch crowds and tourists leave. I fear a large empty windswept plaza in the decades to come as the public might feel too odd or self-conscious to 'enjoy' a park that is effectively a tomb. Anyway, it doesn't appear to function as a park which is disappointing. It reminds me too much of Washington, D.C, large memorial areas used mainly by tourists while the residents are pining for proper gathering spaces and real parks/plazas in which to spend their free time. Of course Washington, D.C has no real people parks, just psuedo-parks, while NY has decent parks, so the comparison is not entirely valid. As a resident of DC, I'd have no interest at all in spnding time town at those memorials. They are built for tourists and not for residents. I'd feel the same way if I was a NYer living near this site

Giving the entirety of that massive piece of land to a memorial is a mistake I feel will come back to haunt the city in the long run. The space should have been designed to take into a account what residents wanted as they are the people living there all year round. There should have been an attempt to combine the somber memorial with a real city plaza which represents the continuation of life and a nice place for FiDi residents to gather and relax.

[JSsocal]

^^^No way that would fly. You can't justify putting cafes and a functioning park on top of what is still a memorial. You wouldn't set up a cafe in the Lincoln memorial? New York City is one of the few places in the United States where large public spaces always seem to somehow work, I mean that there always seems to be foot traffic, and this is no exception. This plaza will not become barren or devoid of people, it's in the heart of lower manhattan, and will be a tourist destination so long as New York exists.

[yankeesfan1000]

Originally Posted by aquablue

I too am disappointed with the design of the memorial. I think it should have been underground or a half-half plan. Some of the memorial area should have been a large pedestrian plaza full of activities and cafes and fountains, done in an Italian style. That way, the life above would symbolize the rebirth of NYC and the continuation of life. Below would remind of of what we have lost. Also, in this way, a large valuable piece of land would be used more effectively long after the lunch crowds and tourists leave. I fear a large empty windswept plaza in the decades to come as the public might feel too odd or self-conscious to 'enjoy' a park that is effectively a tomb. Anyway, it doesn't appear to function as a park which is disappointing. It reminds me too much of Washington, D.C, large memorial areas used mainly by tourists while the residents are pining for proper gathering spaces and real parks/plazas in which to spend their free time. Of course Washington, D.C has no real people parks, just psuedo-parks, while NY has decent parks, so the comparison is not entirely valid. As a resident of DC, I'd have no interest at all in spnding time town at those memorials. They are built for tourists and not for residents. I'd feel the same way if I was a NYer living near this site

Giving the entirety of that massive piece of land to a memorial is a mistake I feel will come back to haunt the city in the long run. The space should have been designed to take into a account what residents wanted as they are the people living there all year round. There should have been an attempt to combine the somber memorial with a real city plaza which represents the continuation of life and a nice place for FiDi residents to gather and relax.

Putting the memorial essentially in the basement would not have gone over too well with the families. You mention you want it to be more Italian in that in has cafes and fountains, but you do realize it has two large fountains, and there is restaurant and retail space at the ground level of these towers so restaurants will open up? The memorial will be anything but empty, the population of lower Manhattan, especially the Financial District is way up, and the Transportation Hub will be used by tens of thousands of people, if not more every day. I don't know how they could use the land more effectively, 4 enormous office buildings are going up, and then there's tower 5 which very well could be a mixed use building. I find it ironic you call the current memorial a tomb, but you would ideally like the memorial to be underground?

Clearly you have never been to Lower Manhattan, as there is more park space in Lower Manhattan than anywhere else in the city. Across the street from the WTC you have the West Side Waterfront, with tennis courts, basketball courts, play grounds, mini golf, volley ball courts, huge lawns, big open piers. Then you have Battery Park City which streches from Chambers all the way to the Staten Island Ferry with gorgeous walkways along the river, and right the WFC Winter Garden has huge restaurants with the capacity to seat maybe a 1,000 people outside. Then you have City Hall which offers some decent open green space as well.

But as someone else said, the construction of eventually five brand new, modern, gleaming, soaring skyscrapers will symbolize the continuation of life in Lower Manhattan. But if you don't like it, don't go.

[Monsanto21]

Workers placing the subslab of what will be Liberty Street

Looking east from atop the West Vent Structure


Looking North with North Pool running


Photo credits to: http://twitter.com/#!/WTCProgress

[Kanto]

Originally Posted by aquablue

I too am disappointed with the design of the memorial. I think it should have been underground or a half-half plan. Some of the memorial area should have been a large pedestrian plaza full of activities and cafes and fountains, done in an Italian style. That way, the life above would symbolize the rebirth of NYC and the continuation of life. Below would remind of of what we have lost. Also, in this way, a large valuable piece of land would be used more effectively long after the lunch crowds and tourists leave. I fear a large empty windswept plaza in the decades to come as the public might feel too odd or self-conscious to 'enjoy' a park that is effectively a tomb. Anyway, it doesn't appear to function as a park which is disappointing. It reminds me too much of Washington, D.C, large memorial areas used mainly by tourists while the residents are pining for proper gathering spaces and real parks/plazas in which to spend their free time. Of course Washington, D.C has no real people parks, just psuedo-parks, while NY has decent parks, so the comparison is not entirely valid. As a resident of DC, I'd have no interest at all in spnding time town at those memorials. They are built for tourists and not for residents. I'd feel the same way if I was a NYer living near this site

Giving the entirety of that massive piece of land to a memorial is a mistake I feel will come back to haunt the city in the long run. The space should have been designed to take into a account what residents wanted as they are the people living there all year round. There should have been an attempt to combine the somber memorial with a real city plaza which represents the continuation of life and a nice place for FiDi residents to gather and relax.

I agree that the best memorial is a memorial which has a practical use as well. This way a memorial can't just be ignored and people in their everyday lives will remember what has happened there. In my opinion the new buildings should be both, office towers and memorials and the memorial museum should be located in them. I don't like the fact that they don't want the new towers to be part of the memorial. I have a clear vision how the memorial could, even now, and even after the whole WTC is built, still become both, impressive and visitor friendly. I will soon present my whole idea in the visionary subforum.