Sports in Canadian culture

[Ramako]

Read a rumour (not sure how credible) that a deal is done (but not yet announced) that will have TSN showing all Raptors games moving forward. The entire series against the Nets has been on TSN and apparently it was used as a test to see if the Raptors could generate good numbers, which they have.

It makes sense given that TSN's in desperate need for content ever since Rogers grabbed all the rights to the NHL. This will be good for the Raptors as it will give them a home channel rather than being bounced around from TSN to SportsNet to NBATV Canada over the course of a season.

Been seeing Raptors flags and logos all over town the last couple days. Really happy to see the city embracing this team rather than wallowing in the stench of the Leafs' suckitude.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course they can. It's a bit of an odd mindset though.

What's an odd mindset?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ramako

What's an odd mindset?

The idea that some people have that a sports league has to have teams in another country for it to be worthy of their interest.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The idea that some people have that a sports league has to have teams in another country for it to be worthy of their interest.

I think you may be confusing correlation with causation.

I can't speak for others, but I like the NBA and MLB because they represent the pinnacle level of sports that I enjoy, not because they're from another country. Given the size of the US market, it shouldn't come as a surprise that US-based leagues often attract the best talent, but it's that high level of talent which is attractive, not the mere fact that they're predominantly American leagues. I don't think a Canadian basketball league that features LeBron James and Kevin Durant is going to start any time soon, but if it did I'd certainly watch it.

Talent can really go a long way. For example, I'd never really been interested in MLS (even though it's an American-based league) but ever since the Toronto FC started bringing in players who could legitimately be called top-tier (e.g. Dafoe, Bradley, Cesar) I became interested, and have watched 3 games this season. I'm not a huge soccer fan like I am a basketball or baseball fan, but top talent was enough to pique my interest. That's also why Ricky Williams raised a lot of interest in the Argos, even though they remained within a wholly Canadian league.

The fact is that most Toronto football fans consider the level of talent in the CFL to be inferior to that of the NFL, to the point where many would rather follow an NFL team from another city than a CFL team from Toronto. Whether or not the talent is inferior can be disputed, but that's the perception. The question should be, is the CFL talent level truly inferior, and if not, why do Torontonians think it is?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Ramako

The fact is that most Toronto football fans consider the level of talent in the CFL to be inferior to that of the NFL, to the point where many would rather follow an NFL team from another city than a CFL team from Toronto. Whether or not the talent is inferior can be disputed, but that's the perception. The question should be, is the CFL talent level truly inferior, and if not, why do Torontonians think it is?

And Ricky Williams did how well?

Why do Torontonians (some not all) think it is inferior? Because they know nothing about football, simple as that. Two different leagues requiring different skill sets, and sizes, some players are adaptable, some aren't. And now we're seeing the NFL playing a game that is more sympatico with Canadian football than ever before.

Just like in basketball, Canadian youth NT football teams are beating American NTs, the Canadian product is improving at a rapid rate accelerated by good coaching (same as basketball).

Glitzy, glamour TV, gambling and pools all make for good water cooler talk and for people to belong.

But if some here want to know why they think people are trying to shame them into liking the CFL, the CFL fandom know these people are beyond hope. What bothers the CFL fan is when these water cooler, pool playing morons put down the game in their own country, why would you do that? Even the Americans hardly do that. Same as the stadium in Hamilton, exactly how does the chicken little stuff help. Do these people really want to get the new facility off to a bad start? Seriously what the f@#$ is wrong with these people.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by esquire

We know how it works...you guys watch whatever the US media tells you to watch. It is what it is.

Yeah, it must be the US media telling Toronto to have the highest hockey ticket prices and highest hockey TV ratings (perhaps second to Montreal on some nights)...?

If we were truly American, we'd be watching football -- no matter the type. How ironic is that?

The nativist sentiments here are sad. I better stop watching the EPL and IPL (Indian Premier League, cricket league) before the nativist police come and force me to watch... what? Lacrosse? (NO) Hockey? (NO)... Gridiron football of all sports. The most Canadian of things.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Yeah, it must be the US media telling Toronto to have the highest hockey ticket prices and highest hockey TV ratings (perhaps second to Montreal on some nights)...?

If we were truly American, we'd be watching football -- no matter the type. How ironic is that?

The nativist sentiments here are sad. I better stop watching the EPL and IPL (Indian Premier League, cricket league) before the nativist police come and force me to watch... what? Lacrosse? (NO) Hockey? (NO)... Gridiron football of all sports. The most Canadian of things.

It's not so much a question of being nativist, as much as the implication that one has to imperatively follow the "world's best" league and only that.

For example, a Dutch person should ignore their country's first division because the English Premier League is better? But at some point in the future if the Bundesliga or La Liga overtakes the EPL and becomes the world's best, then the EPL is no longer worthy of interest and his gaze should switch to Germany or Spain? Right?

Obviously such a switch will never happen in North American gridiron football, but the idea that the CFL is so bad that it's not even worth a passing interest betrays something bigger and complex than simply taking an interest in the best.

I like soccer. Of course I don't think that MLS is better than the EPL, Bundesliga or La Liga. Or even Serie A. That doesn't prevent me from having L'Impact as my favourite team and being the team I follow most.

I like hockey. I know the NHL is the best league in the world. That doesn't prevent me from following junior hockey to at least some degree, especially my local teams and the Memorial Cup and the WJC. I am not under any illusion at all that the Gatineau Olympiques could beat the Montreal Canadiens any more than people in Alabama think the Crimson Tide could beat the New England Patriots. But I still have fun watching them and following them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ramako

.

Talent can really go a long way. For example, I'd never really been interested in MLS (even though it's an American-based league) but ever since the Toronto FC started bringing in players who could legitimately be called top-tier (e.g. Dafoe, Bradley, Cesar) I became interested, and have watched 3 games this season. I'm not a huge soccer fan like I am a basketball or baseball fan, but top talent was enough to pique my interest. That's also why Ricky Williams raised a lot of interest in the Argos, even though they remained within a wholly Canadian league.

The MLS and Toronto FC don't really offer "top talent" when it comes to soccer in the global context. Given the lack of competition for top players because of the lack of pro gridiron football leagues around the world, the CFL is a better league talent-wise in its sport than MLS is in soccer. Big names like Thierry Henry and David Beckham came to MLS when they were past their prime, not in the prime of their careers. A good indication of this is that Henry hasn't really played for his national side since he joined MLS and Becks has only been used sporadically by England since he went to the U.S.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The MLS and Toronto FC don't really offer "top talent" when it comes to soccer in the global context. Given the lack of competition for top players because of the lack of pro gridiron football leagues around the world, the CFL is a better league talent-wise in its sport than MLS is in soccer. Big names like Thierry Henry and David Beckham came to MLS when they were past their prime, not in the prime of their careers. A good indication of this is that Henry hasn't really played for his national side since he joined MLS and Becks has only been used sporadically by England since he went to the U.S.

Good point. Toronto's supposed commitment to "only the best" is exposed as a lie by the whole MLS thing. MLS is ranked seventh among domestic leagues in the world... well back of the front runners. Yet you never really hear people in Toronto dumping on TFC with soccer fans opting to stay home to watch EPL games instead.

Toronto just likes whatever's in style. Liking soccer feeds into the whole "we're a cosmopolitan world city" thing, even if it means supporting the soccer equivalent of the ECHL. And that's fair enough... after all, it's entertainment so there is no need to justify one's choices. So all of these supposedly principled reasons for not liking the CFL are bogus and unnecessary.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by elly63

Just like in basketball, Canadian youth NT football teams are beating American NTs, the Canadian product is improving at a rapid rate accelerated by good coaching (same as basketball).

High school football in Canada can't even be compared to the States. The Best teams in the country wouldn't even be relevant if they were located south of the border. My team made it to the Metro Bowl when I played in Junior year and when we went down to a training camp in Tennessee the following summer we got laughed off the field by a team that was lower than 50th in the state. I would love for this to change but to fact is Canada doesn't have that the same affinity for high school ball that the U.S. does. For most kids, it's something to play during the first couple months of school before you go back to hockey or lacrosse. The year-round extra-curricular development systems just aren't on the level they need to be.

I think it would be interesting so see Laval or Western face a D1 U.S. school as the gap definitely narrows when you get to the University level. What I personally think is that maybe 80-90% of a CFL team could be interchanged with an NFL team and still probably perform. The thing is most people don't watch for the kicker or the offensive line. The CFL has no answer for guys like Calvin Johnson, Jamal Charles, or Andrew Luck, the real physical freak athletes.

[Gerrard]

Or maybe, I dunno, Toronto's interest / disinterest in certain sports is just part of those regional differences that seem to be celebrated and tolerated everywhere else in the country, except when they pertain to Toronto.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good point. Toronto's supposed commitment to "only the best" is exposed as a lie by the whole MLS thing. MLS is ranked seventh among domestic leagues in the world... well back of the front runners. Yet you never really hear people in Toronto dumping on TFC with soccer fans opting to stay home to watch EPL games instead.

Ummm... this is exactly what happens. All of the soccer players I know don't care too much for TFC and all have their favourite BPL or La Liga team that they cheer for. Apparently this season opener had the highest tv ratings ever with 300,000, which is nothing really. I think TFC's attendance numbers do fairly well since it's the only live soccer for thousands of kilometers.

That being said, I give my full support to the team this year even though I still prefer to watch prefer to watch the Champion's League games. MLSE has shown that they are making a true financial commitment to the team with the loan of a goalkeeper who is the starter for one of the top contenders at this year's World Cup, and the signing of a player who can still perform at the highest level in England. I recognize that you have to reward that kind of behavior if the MLS is to to ever reach the level of the top global leagues.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

MLSE has shown that they are making a true financial commitment to the team with the loan of a goalkeeper who is the starter for one of the top contenders at this year's World Cup, and the signing of a player who can still perform at the highest level in England. I recognize that you have to reward that kind of behavior if the MLS is to to ever reach the level of the top global leagues.

But that's the kicker (no pun intended). If Toronto similarly pulled up the CFL instead of weighing it down like a boat anchor, the league would be even better off than it is now and would be in a position to acquire better talent and more big names.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

High school football in Canada can't even be compared to the States. The Best teams in the country wouldn't even be relevant if they were located south of the border. My team made it to the Metro Bowl when I played in Junior year and when we went down to a training camp in Tennessee the following summer we got laughed off the field by a team that was lower than 50th in the state. I would love for this to change but to fact is Canada doesn't have that the same affinity for high school ball that the U.S. does. For most kids, it's something to play during the first couple months of school before you go back to hockey or lacrosse. The year-round extra-curricular development systems just aren't on the level they need to be.

I think it would be interesting so see Laval or Western face a D1 U.S. school as the gap definitely narrows when you get to the University level. What I personally think is that maybe 80-90% of a CFL team could be interchanged with an NFL team and still probably perform. The thing is most people don't watch for the kicker or the offensive line. The CFL has no answer for guys like Calvin Johnson, Jamal Charles, or Andrew Luck, the real physical freak athletes.

To be perfectly honest the CFL of the late 70s and 80s also has a huge part of the blame to bear for doing absolutely zero marketing, missing the boat on the global evolution of sports broadcasting and in the process letting the NFL muscle in on its turf.

The effects of this (an entire generation raised on the NFL with indifference or hostility to the CFL) were felt all over the country, not just in southern Ontario.

For a variety of reasons the level of damage done to interest in the CFL varied across the country, with the result that it has recovered much better n certain areas than in others.

Southern Ontario sank the deepest partly because it has two NFL teams not too far away plus it is bombarded by American media like no other part of the country.

In Toronto you have the added factor that the decline of the CFL coincided with the rise of Toronto as Canada's largest city and its becoming a more significant player on the North American and global scenes (in sports and otherwise).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The CFL has no answer for guys like Calvin Johnson, Jamal Charles, or Andrew Luck, the real physical freak athletes.

I don't follow sports as closely as before so not sure about today but in the relatively recent past the CFL did have people like Pinball Clemons and Gizmo Williams.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To be perfectly honest the CFL of the late 70s and 80s also has a huge part of the blame to bear for doing absolutely zero marketing, missing the boat on the global evolution of sports broadcasting and in the process letting the NFL muscle in on its turf.

You are dead right, the CFL was asleep at the switch in the 70s. It's hard to believe now, but up until the 70s the CFL was not that far off from the NFL... look at the CFL circa 1983 and half the stadiums were NFL worthy by the standards at the time (Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, Vancouver), crowds were big, TV ratings were massive. The league fell from grace very hard over a span of about 10 years... the Argos went from being toast of the town in the late 70s to virtual afterthoughts by the late 80s.

Unfortunately a combination of inept leadership (the league stuck to its blackout guns which kept the Ticats and Argos off of TV screens in their markets until the 90s) and very effective NFL marketing and exposure in Canada really did a number on the league... it led to what is often referred to in CFL circles as the "lost generation". In some ways it's a small miracle that the league still exists.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

The now-retired Jordan Younger, one of the more underrated DBs in recent years. Unfortunately being a CFLer in Toronto is like being a NHLer in Miami or Phoenix... no one knows who you are, so he had a pretty low public profile.

I only follow sports sporadically so I wouldn't recognize any of the Ottawa Senators (now that Alfredsson is gone) if they were walking down the street, or any of the Toronto Raptors or Toronto Blue Jays or New England Patriots for that matter.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're garbage players playing for garbage teams in garbage leagues though. That's just me.

But I'd recognize Pinball Clemons in a minute. And I assume many Torontonians would as well.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Pinball should be Mayor of Toronto

[osmo]

Originally Posted by esquire

You are dead right, the CFL was asleep at the switch in the 70s. It's hard to believe now, but up until the 70s the CFL was not that far off from the NFL... look at the CFL circa 1983 and half the stadiums were NFL worthy by the standards at the time (Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, Vancouver), crowds were big, TV ratings were massive. The league fell from grace very hard over a span of about 10 years... the Argos went from being toast of the town in the late 70s to virtual afterthoughts by the late 80s.

Unfortunately a combination of inept leadership (the league stuck to its blackout guns which kept the Ticats and Argos off of TV screens in their markets until the 90s) and very effective NFL marketing and exposure in Canada really did a number on the league... it led to what is often referred to in CFL circles as the "lost generation". In some ways it's a small miracle that the league still exists.

^This.

It's not all that complex. People have all these theories but the bottom line is as the Skydome say empty nobody could ever watch te games. As you noted a whole generation went without watching Argos football and you get the climate now where literally nobody cares about them. I've been saying the Argos are dumb not chasing where their support is strong in the suburbs of Vaughn. But they continue to be inept and do the wrong things more times then now.

The Blue Jays had a lot to do with the Argos fall from grace. One the city got a "big league" team they enjoyed the fact they got to play big cities on par to them like Boston and New York. The Argos and Jaya chugged along about the same until the Jays started winning, but this mirrors the Argos most exciting area too with Rocket and the likes. Jaya win back to back, Argos start making bad decisions and the league as a whole enters it's darkest days. It was the final nail.

The Argos will never be relevant in Toronto. Kids ere don't play football in masse. I don't see the culture here in the youth. The NFL is more accessible then the CFL also. For me growing up poor we had over the air which guaranteed NFL games, and CFL with the CBC, but that isn't the case anymore with TSN. Plus I'm sorry. The quality of how the product is presented is important. By having a monopoly and being forced to outsource it's games to America, TSN has high production standards for the NFL, but does not transfer this to the CFL. MLS is produced jointly with ESPN/TSN and the league and you see the high production quality there also. CFL gets the scraps because TSN knows people will watch. CFL looks bush league because it is presented in a bush league manner. If you forced production quality up it would help a ton. The Grey Cup has turned into a joke. TSN does such a poor job with it, it was better with the CBC as far as production quality goes.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by esquire

Toronto just likes whatever's in style.

Just give it a rest, already. You're starting to embarrass yourself.