Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Colour me sceptical, although I don't know what a "push" would entail.

Probably stuff like, federal funds to combat secularism and help religious crazies achieve their aims, federal control over the amount of FNSs allowed in per year, federal control over the French language abilities (or lack thereof) of the aforementioned FNSs, etc.

I'll let my Liojack Other Half elaborate if he wants

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I'm not in favor of any kind of discrimination either. It has nothing to do with any MAGA or white supremacy crap.
It just only means threats to fair education, actual skills and meritocracy.

You know I'm pleased when folks from any minority in our country grow well educated and fairly successful, but they certainly shouldn't get any particular privilege over white people.
Otherwise, we would end up with people to say - heck, I won't trust that doc. He's got his degree only because he's black. As it might happen in the US, or so I heard. It simply doesn't work.

Making education actually accessible to anybody is more effective.

The pros and cons of positive discrimination can be debated, but to imagine that the French language can survive long term in North America without positive discrimination is at best a delusion, and at worst some cynical bad faith with a hidden agenda.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The pros and cons of positive discrimination can be debated, but to imagine that the French language can survive long term in North America without positive discrimination is at best a delusion, and at worst some cynical bad faith with a hidden agenda.

That would be the general understanding in Canada, vocal extremists excepted.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That would be the general understanding in Canada, vocal extremists excepted.

If that's the case, then how can one (in)famous MCaGA forumer in this thread dare to compare (hypothetical) policies targeting the Francophone minority in New Brunswick and policies protecting the Francophone population of Québec by limiting English use?

Positive discrimination is discrimination, that's in the name, but it's also considered positive and a discrimination that is to the benefit of a larger goal.

[Acajack]

What the Québec and Canadian governments sometimes practise when it comes to French is not really positive discrimination. Positive discrimination is affirmative action or employment equity. Basically it means giving people preference in hiring for certain unchangeable characteristics: race, ethnicity, disability, LGBT etc. No such thing exists for French Canadians.

What we have here instead is French made essential for a lot of jobs. Well some federally and almost all of them in Québec. This is quite different from positive discrimination because not anyone can be black or disabled but anyone can learn French. Jagmeet Singh is more qualified linguistically to be PM of Canada than Jean-Guy Tremblay from Roberval so this isn't necessarily a plus for French Canadians.

Of course many Anglo-Canadians challenge the idea that people should have to know French for certain federal level roles in Canada and they now starting to challenge this in Québec itself too.

[Acajack]

Québec GINI index vs Canada, US and other countries

https://x.com/RepubliqueEcon/status/1905998387436032234?t=OaHrzs7Zpk9W7pEtCAMJSA&s=19

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What the Québec and Canadian governments sometimes practise when it comes to French is not really positive discrimination. Positive discrimination is affirmative action or employment equity. Basically it means giving people preference in hiring for certain unchangeable characteristics: race, ethnicity, disability, LGBT etc. No such thing exists for French Canadians.

What we have here instead is French made essential for a lot of jobs. Well some federally and almost all of them in Québec. This is quite different from positive discrimination because not anyone can be black or disabled but anyone can learn French. Jagmeet Singh is more qualified linguistically to be PM of Canada than Jean-Guy Tremblay from Roberval so this isn't necessarily a plus for French Canadians.

Of course many Anglo-Canadians challenge the idea that people should have to know French for certain federal level roles in Canada and they now starting to challenge this in Québec itself too.

Not formally, but most if not all govt depts have their ways, especially for the executive ranks. Sort of affirmative action by stealth.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not formally, but most if not all govt depts have their ways, especially for the executive ranks. Sort of affirmative action by stealth.

I have literally never heard anyone I know involved in federal management or hiring talk about a need to have a certain number of or more French Canadians.

With a myriad of groups they literally do have measurable quotas for I don’t see why they would add another just for fun.

Obviously they do need people who can speak French especially at management levels but these positions can be filled by anyone bilingual, not necessarily French Canadians.

My guess is that on the representativity scoresheet, filling a bilingual position with someone who isn’t French Canadian is probably seen as a good thing as opposed to a bad one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

There certainly might be some people thinking that way, but I highly doubt that Mr Carney would be one of them. I think he's well aware that his potential victory is heavily influenced by the Trudeau/Trump/"not Poilievre" factors, and that any decline in votes for the Bloc is a reflection of more immediate priorities rather than a sign that separation is "over".

He is obviously not hostile to us but is pretty tone deaf to Québec and francophones based on what we have seen so far.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have literally never heard anyone I know involved in federal management or hiring talk about a need to have a certain number of or more French Canadians.

With a myriad of groups they literally do have measurable quotas for I don’t see why they would add another just for fun.

Obviously they do need people who can speak French especially at management levels but these positions can be filled by anyone bilingual, not necessarily French Canadians.

My guess is that on the representativity scoresheet, filling a bilingual position with someone who isn’t French Canadian is probably seen as a good thing as opposed to a bad one.

It is far from uncommon, among those directly involved with such things. Not for public consumption, obviously. Beneficiaries themselves would never be aware.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have literally never heard anyone I know involved in federal management or hiring talk about a need to have a certain number of or more French Canadians.

With a myriad of groups they literally do have measurable quotas for I don’t see why they would add another just for fun.

Obviously they do need people who can speak French especially at management levels but these positions can be filled by anyone bilingual, not necessarily French Canadians.

My guess is that on the representativity scoresheet, filling a bilingual position with someone who isn’t French Canadian is probably seen as a good thing as opposed to a bad one.

There are certainly claims on both sides about French vs English hiring. Because the exams and interview boards are often completely seperate comparing them is difficult and anything less than 25% success for Francophones is seen as evidence of unfairness. I think HR departments know this but the fact I’ve seen many detailed analyses showing less than their fair share suggests there isn’t a quota. At the highest echelons it’s clear you do need a certain number.

Other equity groups across the board are now beefing plucked from not only the long list of applicants but also those who fail an application process. Nothing like this ever existed in Canada before for Francophones or anyone for that matter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It is far from uncommon, among those directly involved with such things. Not for public consumption, obviously. Beneficiaries themselves would never be aware.

Well then I guess they are all sworn to secrecy and even keep quiet around the closest friends and family around the dinner table and around the swimming pool.

Funny how I've heard stuff about Maher Arar and Prime Ministerial bedroom anecdotes, but not that!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

There are certainly claims on both sides about French vs English hiring. Because the exams and interview boards are often completely seperate comparing them is difficult and anything less than 25% success for Francophones is seen as evidence of unfairness. I think HR departments know this but the fact I’ve seen many detailed analyses showing less than their fair share suggests there isn’t a quota. At the highest echelons it’s clear you do need a certain number.

Other equity groups across the board are now beefing plucked from not only the long list of applicants but also those who fail an application process. Nothing like this ever existed in Canada before for Francophones or anyone for that matter.

Based on media reports (which are based on government HR reports) it always seems like francophones are stuck around 20% of upper management positions and have been for a while. This is lower than the percentage of francophones in the Canadian population (23%?), in the federal public service overall (29%?) and in the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area where most of the public service works (30%?).

So yes it does suggest that if there even is an unofficial target it's not being met.

And yes I have definitely heard a lot about the feds pushing the envelope on officially designated equity group representation, tweaking or fiddling with posted qualifications to boost their numbers.

[Acajack]

Liberal platform on housing:

New agency will be called "Bâtir Maisons Canada" in French.

https://liberal.ca/fr/plan-sur-le-logement/

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Based on media reports (which are based on government HR reports) it always seems like francophones are stuck around 20% of upper management positions and have been for a while. This is lower than the percentage of francophones in the Canadian population (23%?), in the federal public service overall (29%?) and in the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area where most of the public service works (30%?).

So yes it does suggest that if there even is an unofficial target it's not being met.

And yes I have definitely heard a lot about the feds pushing the envelope on officially designated equity group representation, tweaking or fiddling with posted qualifications to boost their numbers.

It takes behind the scenes effort to maintain, let alone increase.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes if Carney does very well in Québec on April 28 there will be a very strong push to proclaim that all of the traditional Québec-Canada sticking points (language, secularism, immigration, autonomy etc) are no longer important and things of the past.

Exactly: "Quebeckers voted for us therefore they agree with everything we do...". This is exactly the mindset the PQ is hoping to see to get the numbers for separation up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It takes behind the scenes effort to maintain, let alone increase.

In fairness to the feds, it's not always easy for them becase a lot of high-flying over-achieving francophones aren't necessarily interested by the federal public service, or in living in Ottawa or Gatineau versus Montreal (or even Quebec City, honestly). Or by a working environment that is as anglo-dominant as the federal public service is perceived to be. I mean, these types of people all speak English of course, and would have to use it at least somewhat even in Montreal (and Quebec City too, really), but the trade-offs still don't seem that good to them.

There have been media articles about this as well.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In fairness to the feds, it's not always easy for them becase a lot of high-flying over-achieving francophones aren't necessarily interested by the federal public service, or in living in Ottawa or Gatineau versus Montreal (or even Quebec City, honestly). Or by a working environment that is as anglo-dominant as the federal public service is perceived to be. I mean, these types of people all speak English of course, and would have to use it at least somewhat even in Montreal (and Quebec City too, really), but the trade-offs still don't seem that good to them.

There have been media articles about this as well.

Effectivement.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Liberal platform on housing:

New agency will be called "Bâtir Maisons Canada" in French.

https://liberal.ca/fr/plan-sur-le-logement/

Stange name. Sounds almost like the way E.T. spoke French in that movie.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Stange name. Sounds almost like the way E.T. spoke French in that movie.

• Video Link

Or Yoda...

D'abordables maisons pour les Canadiens, tu bâtiras...