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  #1341  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2015, 6:24 AM
pseudolus pseudolus is offline
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[QUOTE=M II A II R II K;6866342]Proposed M-Market high frequency subway for SF Muni

http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/

I saw a link to this on streetblogs and thought it was interesting. I couldn't find any info on the website as to who was promoting this. Is Muni even considering this?
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  #1342  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2015, 11:00 AM
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[QUOTE=pseudolus;6867191]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Proposed M-Market high frequency subway for SF Muni

http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/

I saw a link to this on streetblogs and thought it was interesting. I couldn't find any info on the website as to who was promoting this. Is Muni even considering this?
There's no way they're considering this if part of the plan involves buying low floor European-style trams, what with Muni writing a big check to Siemens for some new LRVs in the last few weeks.

It looks like the idea on that site is to divide the Muni Metro system into underground and at-grade sections, making for a higher capacity "M-Market" underground line from Embarcadero to West Portal, and then the other lines (which are reconfigured or replaced) force a transfer at Church, West Portal, or Balboa Park. I could see how this would really improve the service for people who are just traveling within the Market spine, but I could also see how this would result in poorer service for people going from the neighborhoods to downtown, which, in my opinion, is the bread and butter of Muni Metro.

It's an interesting idea, though I'm not really sold on it. I'd be curious to see how they came up with their cost estimates. They look extremely low to me when you compare them to the actual cost of the Central Subway. I can't tell whether this is a plan that would work or whether it's just another person with a copy Illustrator deciding to draw some pretty lines over the city without taking into consideration how people actually use transit.

It seems like the main complaint from this (not enough Market subway service) could be easily and cheaply solved with more S-Castro Shuttle service, and isn't Muni saying that they will be able to run the Siemens cars in bigger consists than the overweight Bredas??
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  #1343  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2015, 10:22 PM
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SMART's pilot set at the Transportation Test Center in Pueblo, CO

https://www.facebook.com/sonomamarin...type=1&theater
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  #1344  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 2:39 AM
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It's so crazy to think that if the SMART project had been just a few years later, they could have procured lighter, cheaper and infinitely more attractive off the shelf DMUs due to the upcoming FRA deregulation/waiver.
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  #1345  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2015, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
It's so crazy to think that if the SMART project had been just a few years later, they could have procured lighter, cheaper and infinitely more attractive off the shelf DMUs due to the upcoming FRA deregulation/waiver.
I personally find the trains good-looking (Japanese designed, and no, I'm not biased ). Is it a sure thing that the FRA will relax regulations once the deadline for PTC occurs? I've heard a lot of talk, but nothing concrete. On that note, momentum does appear toward that direction. It is frustrating that we may have gotten a better deal, but Measure Q passed in 2008. Enough time has passed already. If we were just starting to buy the trains now, I couldn't see it opening with the current schedule. But it just shows the stupidity of having the rules in the first place.
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  #1346  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2015, 2:36 AM
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^ They've already purchased non-compliant vehicles for eBART. I don't think eBART is subject to FRA regs though, since it's not connected to the mainline rail network.

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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
It's so crazy to think that if the SMART project had been just a few years later, they could have procured lighter, cheaper and infinitely more attractive off the shelf DMUs due to the upcoming FRA deregulation/waiver.
Maybe. Buy America isn't going away for Federal projects, though - foreign manufacturers would still need to set up operations here to comply, and due to the general low demand in America for new railcars, the country can only support so many rail factories. Austin, San Diego and NJ bought imported Stadler trains entirely using local funding, so Buy America didn't apply (they also got waivers from FRA for non-compliant equipment).

On the other hand, deregulation could allow Siemens, Bombardier, and Nippon Sharyo to build their off-the-shelf European railcars in their existing American factories, with minor changes. Alstom has a facility in the US, but they don't seem to bid on much except for refurbishments sadly.
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  #1347  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2015, 2:45 AM
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  #1348  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2015, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Alstom has a facility in the US, but they don't seem to bid on much except for refurbishments sadly.
It's worth mentioning as well that Alstom was the other major bidder for the BART Fleet of the Future contract and even proposed manufacturing the cars at a new facility in the Bay Area, though they obviously were not selected as Bombardier was able to undercut their cost by a significant margin.
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  #1349  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2015, 3:23 PM
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That article linked by Ardecila is worth a read if anyone has not already. Here it is:

http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com...s-stadler-dmu/
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  #1350  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2015, 6:55 PM
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http://www.contracostatimes.com/cont...mtrak-transfer

"OAKLAND -- A former BART director sees a tantalizing opportunity to speed up some commutes between San Francisco and communities along Amtrak's Capitol Corridor.

Bob Allen, the transit system's District 5 representative from 1974 to 1988, proposes a transfer station at Seventh Street in Oakland where BART's transbay line crosses over the Union Pacific tracks that carry Amtrak trains.

"From a transfer station there, 16 or more (BART) trains per hour would reach four BART/Muni downtown San Francisco stations in six to 10 minutes," Allen said."



This would be so awesome!
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  #1351  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 2:44 AM
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Muni has announced they'll be purchasing an additional 40 new Siemens light rail vehicles, on top of their current order of 175.

This is fantastic news--it will allow for more reliable service than today, and likely better service frequencies as well. Our current problem with the Breda fleet is that whenever they require maintenance--and it happens way too frequently--we don't have enough trains to replace them. The newer, bigger fleet will make a huge difference.
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  #1352  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 3:42 AM
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Woo hoo! These new trains are going to be great.
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  #1353  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2015, 6:56 AM
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[QUOTE=pseudolus;6867191]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Proposed M-Market high frequency subway for SF Muni

http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/

I saw a link to this on streetblogs and thought it was interesting. I couldn't find any info on the website as to who was promoting this. Is Muni even considering this?
Wait... what will happen to its current designation, M-Ocean View? That's the line I use often to go to and from San Francisco State, my school. If it does happen, then I would go a bit confused as to which line goes to both my school and Stonestown. Not to mention, there have been competing stories as to how the M should be aligned beyond West Portal wherein there were plans to either:

- Build underground stations at Stonestown, SF State, and go inside Parkmerced; or
- Extend it all the way down to Daly City BART

The thing, though, is the M-Ocean View has been a reliable transit line to me that I find it better to use than the 28-19th Avenue many, many times.
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  #1354  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2015, 7:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northbay View Post
SMART's pilot set at the Transportation Test Center in Pueblo, CO

https://www.facebook.com/sonomamarin...type=1&theater
I'm really looking forward to seeing that train being operated here in Novato, in person. And by the way, I attended an Operations and Customer Service Committee meeting with SF Muni lately, in which a Clipper bigwig said that "once SMART train starts operation, it will only accept Clipper as form of payment. No tickets or cash will be accepted."

Source (PDF)
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  #1355  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2015, 7:43 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
It's so crazy to think that if the SMART project had been just a few years later, they could have procured lighter, cheaper and infinitely more attractive off the shelf DMUs due to the upcoming FRA deregulation/waiver.
SMART did look at purchasing lighter, more attractive, off the shelf DMUs - but they were not cheaper as you suggest.
SMART received bids from:
FRA Compliant
CAF $136.7 million
US Railcar $131.5 million
Siemens $121.2 million
Sumitomo $82.7 million
Non FRA Compliant
Stadler $124 million
Siemens $104.6 million
The bids were for building 9 sets of 3 car DMU trains.
Eventually, they ordered just 7 sets of 2 car DMU trains (14 DMUs in total).
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  #1356  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2015, 8:39 AM
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^^ If that's the case, SMART would have been anticipating lower ridership at first, given the lower density of the line alignment. However, should the need arise, it could order for more train cars (dependent on the track progress along the line, especially that a good chunk of its service is single-tracked). And by the way, I think I will need to get even more information from the sources so that I can provide even more reliable information, especially that I have a solid interest in this project.
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  #1357  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2015, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post

Wait... what will happen to its current designation, M-Ocean View? That's the line I use often to go to and from San Francisco State, my school. If it does happen, then I would go a bit confused as to which line goes to both my school and Stonestown. Not to mention, there have been competing stories as to how the M should be aligned beyond West Portal wherein there were plans to either:

- Build underground stations at Stonestown, SF State, and go inside Parkmerced; or
- Extend it all the way down to Daly City BART

The thing, though, is the M-Ocean View has been a reliable transit line to me that I find it better to use than the 28-19th Avenue many, many times.
The website shows that they would want to merge the M-Ocean View into the L line, running from the zoo to West Portal, then down the current M tracks to Balboa Park. So a new L line would serve both SFSU and Stonestown while forcing you to transfer to the new "M-Market" line at West Portal. It seems like a poorly-thought out pipe dream in my opinion.
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  #1358  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 3:18 AM
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Yeah, that proposal for an "M Market" line isn't going to happen.
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  #1359  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesCO View Post
The website shows that they would want to merge the M-Ocean View into the L line, running from the zoo to West Portal, then down the current M tracks to Balboa Park. So a new L line would serve both SFSU and Stonestown while forcing you to transfer to the new "M-Market" line at West Portal. It seems like a poorly-thought out pipe dream in my opinion.
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Yeah, that proposal for an "M Market" line isn't going to happen.
The supposed "L" line between SF Zoo and Balboa Park via SF State would be a most ridiculous idea ever, especially that, if it happens, it will make transferring difficult at West Portal wherein there is no stop for either the L or M immediately after the trains exit (or before those enter) the portal. Whoever crafted that idea should really make a second look at the current layout of West Portal Station (at Ulloa Street) so that they can see for themselves how to make such an arrangement. What can also be compromised would be the operation of the K/T-Ingleside/Third Street, which, in itself, is already a long route (the inbound trains switch signs at West Portal from the K to the T for Sunnydale)... I'm already happy with how things are, actually.

What I would like to see more would be lengthening their trains (like the ones I found on the S-Shuttle between Embarcadero and West Portal Stations) so that they can carry even more passengers on the busiest lines, most especially on the N-Judah and L-Taraval lines. The K/T shall be expanded to 2 cars so that their operations can be optimized more, while the J and the M shall keep their current configurations.
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  #1360  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2015, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
The supposed "L" line between SF Zoo and Balboa Park via SF State would be a most ridiculous idea ever, especially that, if it happens, it will make transferring difficult at West Portal wherein there is no stop for either the L or M immediately after the trains exit (or before those enter) the portal. Whoever crafted that idea should really make a second look at the current layout of West Portal Station (at Ulloa Street) so that they can see for themselves how to make such an arrangement. What can also be compromised would be the operation of the K/T-Ingleside/Third Street, which, in itself, is already a long route (the inbound trains switch signs at West Portal from the K to the T for Sunnydale)... I'm already happy with how things are, actually.

What I would like to see more would be lengthening their trains (like the ones I found on the S-Shuttle between Embarcadero and West Portal Stations) so that they can carry even more passengers on the busiest lines, most especially on the N-Judah and L-Taraval lines. The K/T shall be expanded to 2 cars so that their operations can be optimized more, while the J and the M shall keep their current configurations.
This seems to be a growing trend recently. Some armchair transit planner realizes that transit in their city is lacking (surprise surprise), gets a copy of Illustrator, and then starts drawing pretty lines over a map. Someone also made a similarly-looking Squarespace site for an equally implausible idea for a streetcar network in Denver not too long ago, but they then dismissed this site as being too "wonky" for wanting to discuss cost projections and ridership numbers.

A lot of people who do these projects and think they're viable do them more for the zeal of graphic design while not taking into consideration so much how people actually use transit, and they often grossly underestimate the costs of infrastructure investments, if they even take that into consideration at all. Do you think anyone is actually trying to go from the zoo to Balboa Park, or are the majority of people on that side of town really trying to get downtown? Making a line like that would greatly reduce the number of one-seat rides that probably thousands of people already enjoy while creating a line that connects two places that don't really need to be connected. There are so many problems with that plan that it doesn't make any realistic sense.

To me, their biggest (and valid) criticism of there not being enough "true" subway service on the Market subway is something that could, and will, be easily solved with more Castro Shuttle service. It's also buried in the Siemens LRV order press release that the new rail fleet that Muni just ordered will be able to run in up to four car consists, which should result in a dramatic increase in capacity on Muni Metro. This is an example of a reasonable, medium-term investment that produces a cost effective solution without trying to graft the Paris metro onto San Francisco. Though these kinds of projects like Muni's fleet renewal aren't conducive to sexy Squarespace mockup sites or behance likes, I suppose.
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