ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[Rail Claimore]

Originally Posted by briantech

Hate to point this out, but crime occurs everywhere. In every city, in every suburb, in every country, in every town.

As long as we're throwing out personal anecdotes, a close friend of mine who lives in a very nice suburb in norcross was walking in front of a very suburban grocery store (publix) when two guys walked up to him and began beating the shit out of him in broad daylight.

A mom in a minivan at least screeched to a halt and yelled that she was going to call 911 before they could get his wallet.

They didn't run away. They didn't jump into a car. They said "ah fuck this" and slowly sauntered away. Like not a thing had happened.

Crime happens everywhere. If you think its exclusive to atlanta, then please, do me a favor, and go live in new york, and miami, and chicago, and LA, and detroit, and houston, and washington DC, and st louis, and cleveland, and san francisco, and orlando ...

Once you find a place that has no crime whatsoever please let us all know. Maybe you should start carrying a gun.

[popewiz]

Originally Posted by pdpmishap

No one's against night life or diversity for that matter. Bulldogs has been a Midtown staple for decades and condos surround it on all sides. I don't think anyone really minds its presence given it has been there since long before any of the residents. The issue is size and location. The proposed Vision is 19,000 sq ft making it nearly 50% bigger than Opera which already creates a serious nightmare for parking and foot traffic in the Crescent area which isn't even a residential area. Putting it on the corner next to a boutique hotel and fairly expensive condos is asking for trouble. When Vision was last open, that entire area was virtually all commercial properties or surface parking lots which made its impact far smaller than today.

I wouldn't quite say that no one has an issue with Bulldogs. The people who live in 900 Peachtree (apartments) and Peachtree Lofts (condos) sometimes have issues with the noise coming from Bulldogs. This is despite the fact that Bulldogs is actually pretty good about keeping the doors closed and the music low enough. The problem is the people standing around outside after the club closes at 3:00AM, and I can guarantee you this problem will be amplified many times over with the arrival of a club like Vision.

In fact, when I first moved in at 900 Peachtree, Vision was still open. The cruising, people yelling on the streets, bass coming from cars was so excessive to the point where sleeping on a Friday or Saturday night was almost impossible until after 3:30AM. Almost immediately after Vision closed things improved quite drastically. I have since moved into the Midtown neighborhood, but I feel sorry for any residents over that direction if Vision is allowed to re-open.

[alleystreetindustry]

Originally Posted by UVAsuperman

My issue with it is traffic and noise. Crime happens everywhere--it happens all over Midtown already. If it happens more at the corner of Peachtree and 11th in a few months, I don't really care because I won't be standing there. But I will be trying to sleep in my condo and there will be increased noise from the street. I didn't have anything to do with the website--just posting, really to get the petition out there for people. I think Midtown has a lot of nightlife--more so now than Downtown or Buckhead, particularly if you include Virginia-Highlands in the equation. The issue here is that this establishment brings negative externalities (the noise and traffic, perhaps among other things) that detract from encouraging people to live in Midtown.

i dont want to come of as rude, but what is atlanta supposed to be known as to the world? a suburb in the city limit? NIGHTLIFE is just what atlanta needs! midtown used to be it! atlanta used to be what was happening in the south, along with all sorts of other great labels and experiences. we are apparently [still] where its at, but we dont compare to other cities when it comes to music and nightlife (nyc, chicago, miami, l.a., etc.) and we used to be up there with them. atlanta was one of the nations most popular cities earlier this decade, but all of that seems to be gone.

now we are about to dip into territory for "every other city". i dont know about everybody else, but it kills me everytime someone groups atlanta with houston, dallas, and phoenix, etc. atlanta should not share every characteristic with the other cities i just listed, we need to bring competition to all of them.

the one place we can start is learning from the past and reversing what was done. there is a place for a nightlife district, and there is a way to make such a place popular and safe. the city kind of screwed that up when they set up the new limits for bars/clubs to close @ two. they should be opening @ two, closing around nine.

[cybele]

I'm old so my opinion is not that relevant but I don't understand how having a bunch of obnoxious people hanging out on the sidewalk late at night, cruising around with thumping bass speakers or shooting and stabbing other people is "urban." You can get that in a suburban mall.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by GThomas

I was just robbed at gunpoint in Midtown at 6th and Peachtree... pinned up along a brick wall on 6th St with a friend of mine at 6:30 PM on Friday in daylight with people all over the street. I guess I had it coming living in Midtown and walking everywhere I want to go. I should have known better. Ghetto. I'm out of this town as soon as I can be.

Sorry to hear about that, hope you're ok. Not a reason for leaving town though, unless you're moving to some small low-crime town instead of another urban area.

[pdpmishap]

Originally Posted by alleystreetindustry

i dont want to come of as rude, but what is atlanta supposed to be known as to the world? a suburb in the city limit? NIGHTLIFE is just what atlanta needs! midtown used to be it! atlanta used to be what was happening in the south, along with all sorts of other great labels and experiences. we are apparently [still] where its at, but we dont compare to other cities when it comes to music and nightlife (nyc, chicago, miami, l.a., etc.) and we used to be up there with them. atlanta was one of the nations most popular cities earlier this decade, but all of that seems to be gone.

now we are about to dip into territory for "every other city". i dont know about everybody else, but it kills me everytime someone groups atlanta with houston, dallas, and phoenix, etc. atlanta should not share every characteristic with the other cities i just listed, we need to bring competition to all of them.

the one place we can start is learning from the past and reversing what was done. there is a place for a nightlife district, and there is a way to make such a place popular and safe. the city kind of screwed that up when they set up the new limits for bars/clubs to close @ two. they should be opening @ two, closing around nine.

The same people that ruined the 4am last call are the ones that are still making no one want Vision to come back. Unless APD can get the cruising/parking lot loitering under control then I don't really want to see Vision come back at all on Peachtree. Nightlife in Atlanta is alive and well along Crescent where it's concentrated, street traffic is ~5mph and cops can actually control the situation vs. putting a superclub next to condos on the other side of Peachtree from every other club left in Midtown. IIRC a big problem in Buckhead was so many people along Buckhead Ave that the road was essentially unusable at night. Doing the same to Peachtree can't really be a good idea when thousands of people live within 4-5 blocks. Having Crescent and that area along E Andrews/Paces Ferry Place makes the whole clubbing/bar hopping thing so much more tenable for APD since it's a side street w/ little through traffic. Peachtree is still a main artery of the town and shouldn't be shutdown at night b/c of a single night club sneaks by Atlanta's poor urban planners. There isn't the room in that block on Peachtree into a walking friendly club district. Why not build something along the 13th and Peachtree Walk surface lots.

I've got nothing against nightlife...would be out tonight w/ some friends at Primal but I planning mountain biking early in the morning. As it is w/ the National Bike Roundup in town there was tons of choppers flying up and down Peachtree last night keeping me up. Of course the cops were too busy dealing w/ that stabbing in Piedmont to worry about the impromptu bike show next to Bulldog's at 3am. I never realized there was that much overlap between sport bikers/choppers and the black gay community but they were playing lets see whose idle can deafen the surrounding 10 blocks for 20-30 minutes.

I've been out to the clubs in NYC a few dozen times and at least when people cruise bys there they do it in Ferraris and Lambos vs. hoopties down here. Since so few people drive to the clubs traffic is effectively all cabs. Also most of the clubs there weren't too close to apts and the super clubs tended to be in more out of the way areas where either they were clustered in industrial districts where residential impact wasn't as bad. Finding a 20,000 sqft club below a high rise condo or hotel is pretty unheard of despite the hundreds of clubs and bars that are in the city.

[gttx]

Well, since what I like is skyscrapers, here is my only opinion on the Vision issue:

If the club is built on that site, I would imagine that the owners would spend a considerable amount of money to build it or upgrade that old building. Most owners are not interested in that sort of investment if the terms of their lease are not long term. A long term lease on that site makes the chances of new, large-scale development in the next 5 years very slim.

I want to see Dewberry's site redeveloped as something big and something that really advances what we all believe Midtown will become. Building a club there for the time being will do nothing but slow down that prospect.

[UVAsuperman]

I don't really want to start a huge off-topic diverenge (not that we have that much else to talk about right now with respect to skyscrapers), but I'll respond briefly to alleystreetindustry since the tact is better than "you're out of your mind." I pretty much echo pdpmishap's comments. There is absolutely a place in Atlanta for nightclubs, and I actually lament the closing of the Buckhead district because of its impact on the city's availability of those venues, though I didn't frequent that area much. The reality is that the location of Buckhead's district was bad (and once Carter gets regoing and gets SOB built, the much better use will be realized), and so is the new club at 11th and Peachtree. There are, in fact, dozens of nightlife options in Midtown, many of which serve the residents of Midtown and neighboring areas. The 11th and Peachtree club will not primarily serve Midtown residents, but it will adversely impact Midtown residents by making Peachtree a parking lot (preventing emergency vehicles from traveling up and down Peachtree), by dramatically increasing street noise (mostly from vehicles--bass and honking), and possibly by attracting more crime. Is noise and traffic expected when you buy in an urban area? Sure. Should the noise and traffic be increased so that people that don't live in Midtown can come here and party and support some image? I don't think so. That's why I'm against the club, and why I posted the link to the petition so that others that feel that way can have an outlet. Let's face it--fighting the city on building permits and liquor licenses is an uphill battle.

I think that the city should try to lead nightclubs like the proposed one to a place that impacts the immediate area less. Cheshire Bridge is an immediate option--it's close to the interstate so access from suburbs and the southern parts of the city is good, there are less people living there to impact, there is plenty of space for parking, and moving from seedy strip clubs to upscale nightclubs would actually be a huge improvement in that area. West Midtown also has some possibilities (think where Compound used to be). I understand the allure of the Peachtree location, but if the City really wants the "Midtown Mile" or to create a safe, high-end live-work-play environment in Midtown, adding this club to the mix hinders rather than helps. A lot of the issues here come down to what City leadership really envisions for Atlanta versus what residents envision and how the City can actually lead and govern to realize such visions.

Now, that said. I most strongly agree with gttx. For the purposes of this discussion thread and the people on this board, the biggest problem with the club is the impact it has on the timing of development of that huge, centrally located Dewberry parcel. It makes use of that land in a way that is most beneficial to Midtown as a whole be delayed even longer. That is also something I do not want.

[BlueSangha]

Originally Posted by UVAsuperman

Now, that said. I most strongly agree with gttx. For the purposes of this discussion thread and the people on this board, the biggest problem with the club is the impact it has on the timing of development of that huge, centrally located Dewberry parcel. It makes use of that land in a way that is most beneficial to Midtown as a whole be delayed even longer. That is also something I do not want.

I don't buy this argument at all-as we all know Dewberry operates on his own terms and certainly has no plans in the near future to build on his cite, at least not in the next ten years. Second of all the state of the economy will pretty much ensure that nothing in that area will be built anytime soon-with the condo and office markets overbuilt, we have seen all the development we are going to see in midtown for some time. I really don't see nightclub being that much of a factor in development, if someone really wants to develop in midtown and they have the resources, they will develop. To say that this nightclub will take away the use of the land in a way that is most beneficial to midtown is not true, Vision was bought out before and they'll be bought out again.

[GThomas]

Originally Posted by briantech

Hate to point this out, but crime occurs everywhere. In every city, in every suburb, in every country, in every town.

As long as we're throwing out personal anecdotes, a close friend of mine who lives in a very nice suburb in norcross was walking in front of a very suburban grocery store (publix) when two guys walked up to him and began beating the shit out of him in broad daylight.

A mom in a minivan at least screeched to a halt and yelled that she was going to call 911 before they could get his wallet.

They didn't run away. They didn't jump into a car. They said "ah fuck this" and slowly sauntered away. Like not a thing had happened.

Crime happens everywhere. If you think its exclusive to atlanta, then please, do me a favor, and go live in new york, and miami, and chicago, and LA, and detroit, and houston, and washington DC, and st louis, and cleveland, and san francisco, and orlando ...

Once you find a place that has no crime whatsoever please let us all know. Maybe you should start carrying a gun.

You know, you're right for the most part. Crime does happen everywhere, and I was being a bit irrational as a knee-jerk reaction to being robbed in broad daylight. It's easy to have the "crime happens everywhere" opinion, but you'll have a different perspective of things if you're the actual crime victim. I don't want to live paranoid, and moving might help remove that feeling. I've lived in and walked Midtown for six years and have enjoyed watching the growth of this city and had become quite the booster for Atlanta. I'm just more disappointed than anything. The quality of life I'd grown accustomed to in Midtown is slowly eroding, or at least that's my perspective.

Regarding the urban/nightclub debate... I live on the first floor across from Halo nightclub. I'm woken up at 1-2 am on a regular basis by people fighting, yelling, loud speakers, cop lights. It's not fun for many of the residents of my building... you know, those people that actually walk around and live in Midtown on a daily basis. The vast majority of people at Halo do not live in Midtown. Just last night, there were about 200 people outside my window, lingering, and I couldn't get into my parking deck. I just feel like the city should cater to its residents; and IMO attracting residents over visitors will more effectively create an urban fabric.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by GThomas

Regarding the urban/nightclub debate... I live on the first floor across from Halo nightclub. I'm woken up at 1-2 am on a regular basis by people fighting, yelling, loud speakers, cop lights. It's not fun for many of the residents of my building... you know, those people that actually walk around and live in Midtown on a daily basis. The vast majority of people at Halo do not live in Midtown. Just last night, there were about 200 people outside my window, lingering, and I couldn't get into my parking deck. I just feel like the city should cater to its residents; and IMO attracting residents over visitors will more effectively create an urban fabric.

One of the many reasons why retail or other active uses should occupy the ground floors of buildings, with residential units or commercial space above.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by pdpmishap

I've been out to the clubs in NYC a few dozen times and at least when people cruise bys there they do it in Ferraris and Lambos vs. hoopties down here.

I'd be interested to hear how the proponents of walkable, sustainable urban communities feel that having Lambos and hoopties cruising the streets all night fits in. A lot of those things probably don't get 5 miles per gallon.

[GThomas]

Originally Posted by cybele

I'd be interested to hear how the proponents of walkable, sustainable urban communities feel that having Lambos and hoopties cruising the streets all night fits in. A lot of those things probably don't get 5 miles per gallon.

It's really ironic that you brought up a Lambo; which was the very thing parked in the entrance to my parking garage holding up anyone from getting in/out. When I honked they didn't move. I told them it was a residential garage and to get out of the driveway, and I was heckled and told, "You need to calm the *expletive* down... you drive a Mustang anyway." The entitlement/image mentality here can be ridiculous. Anyway... off topic.

gttx - You're right about the ground-level retail/active use. It seems very chicken and egg. What comes first, the residents or high-density residential with ground level retail. It's hard to have the latter without the residents to support the active use. The amount of empty retail space sitting around here speaks to the fact that it's not necessary to incorporate here yet. It's nice to think we could support that, but Atlanta just can't right now.

[cybele]

The last thing in the world I'm impressed by is what kind of car some yahoo is driving.

[alleystreetindustry]

Originally Posted by GThomas

Regarding the urban/nightclub debate... I live on the first floor across from Halo nightclub. I'm woken up at 1-2 am on a regular basis by people fighting, yelling, loud speakers, cop lights. It's not fun for many of the residents of my building... you know, those people that actually walk around and live in Midtown on a daily basis. The vast majority of people at Halo do not live in Midtown. Just last night, there were about 200 people outside my window, lingering, and I couldn't get into my parking deck. I just feel like the city should cater to its residents; and IMO attracting residents over visitors will more effectively create an urban fabric.

i could see where youre coming from. im all about atlanta nightlife, but it doesnt make since for it to have an affect on the residential life. people that live near (as in blocks from, not above) some sort of nightlife district should understand what theyre signed up for. and many of the people that do are okay with it. i just dont like the comments where people move here and complain. not targeting anyone here.

we have plenty of room for nightclubs, including plenty of space in midtown/downtown. and the only logical way i can think of a bond between would be clubs/bars underneath office space.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by cybele

The last thing in the world I'm impressed by is what kind of car some yahoo is driving.

Ditto. It's amazing how much your perspective changes when you don't have to rely on a car to get everywhere. I used to have a nice car, but it doesn't even matter to me anymore - I'm much happier without it.

[cybele]

Why can't they just put the nightclub in Underground? Isn't that supposed to be some special nightlife district with late closing hours? You'd have transit access and it would be a huge boon to Downtown.

It would also be in a central location. If people wanted to come there from other parts of the city all they'd have to do is hop on the train. And it would probably get a lot of drunk drivers off the streets.

[joecool]

Originally Posted by cybele

The last thing in the world I'm impressed by is what kind of car some yahoo is driving.

I know right!

[RobMidtowner]

Interesting discussion everyone. I can relate with GThomas because I live right next to Primal, which most of the time is totally fine. The problem is not the night clubs, it's the people that go to them that don't know how to handle themselves. Even with cops on location for the entire night, incidents still happen. Maybe someday we'll get to a point where people can actually go to clubs, enjoy themselves, and go home. This is already the case for most club-goers, but all it takes is one idiot to ruin it for everybody. If Primal is any indication, another Vision would be just as bad as people have described. The way I see it, the only way to keep bad things from happening is to not have a club, since cops clearly can't prevent everything.

[Atlwest281]

Lets face it. The night life in this city is DEAD. I firmly believe you have to offer nightlife in order to keep the coveted demographioc that tthis metro wants and is getting. Going to tucker to go to one club over to duluth for another then down Buford highway is ridiculuos. I think the city needs to get club owners residents and police together to form some ideas of where they could put clubs or even create a special zoning called nightlife and figure out ways to make the residents happy(its not cool to be woken up by dumb asses reviving there car or fighting over some ugly whore) and ways to attract people into town to go to these clubs and make it more vibrant.

TYo the gentleman who was mugged. I am so so so so so so so so sorry :-( Please dont let the actions of some terrible good fornothing MF's cause you to leave. This is a good city/metro with many good people who arent ghetto and even who are but have no ill intent in them. What happened to you unfortunantely can happen in San Fransisco New york or West palm Beach. It is a problem with the society at large not the city though it is definitely showing more need for foot patrol officers. Once again I am so so sorry and I hope you and your friend are okay. If you need anything at all let me know