Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One does never know, though. These are strange and unique times.

To win he's got to pull off probably two of a 905 sweep, Quebec Francophone win and Atlantic Canada sweep. With a prairie city and BC comeback a wildcard. Right now the first three are looking strong which puts them in majority territory.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by harls

Yeah, there's no need to make anything that awful or arrogant of it either, right?
You don't necessarily have to be polyglot to be smart. I only meant that it probably would help on average, somehow.
And it should be mandatory in Canada anyway, given the composition of society over there.

The French are not very comfy with foreign languages either anyway.
Even many educated struggle in (oral) English.
It is easier to write than to speak it when we hardly ever use it orally.

[Acajack]

It could be that this unique situation with the US and Trump might cause enough of a blip of enough Quebecers not caring (for the first time in almost 70 years) too much about a federal leader's French, to the point where he does "well" here. (For me, "well" would be about as many or slightly more seats than Justin Trudeau won.)

But my guess is that it probably would be just be a one-time thing. Not the heralding of a new era in Quebec-Canada politics.

And again, it's still far from a sure thing that the polling will hold between now and early May.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Yeah, there's no need to make anything that awful or arrogant of it either, right?
You don't necessarily have to be polyglot to be smart. I only meant that it probably would help on average, somehow.
And it should be mandatory in Canada anyway, given the composition of society over there.

The French are not very comfy with foreign languages either anyway.
Even many educated struggle in (oral) English.
It is easier to write than to speak it when we hardly ever use it orally.

Bilingualism or multilingualism is not really as highly valued in Canada as one might think, especially for a bilingual diverse country like ours.

But these views against bilingualism in Canada ("everyone in the world speaks English anyway!") are more of a defensive position related to Canadian politics than anything analytical.

It's surprising how many Canadians have these views, relative to people to other Anglosphere countries. I often find that Americans, Brits and Australians have more positive views of bilingualism/multilingualism than Canadians do, even though it's just "lip service" to make themselves look open-minded. In reality, they're aren't any more likely to speak another language (probably less) than (Anglo-)Canadians are.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Bilingualism or multilingualism is not really as highly valued in Canada as one might think, especially for a bilingual diverse country like ours.

But these views against bilingualism in Canada ("everyone in the world speaks English anyway!") are more of a defensive position related to Canadian politics than anything analytical.

It's surprising how many Canadians have these views, relative to people to other Anglosphere countries. I often find that Americans, Brits and Australians have more positive views of bilingualism/multilingualism than Canadians do, even though it's just "lip service" to make themselves look open-minded. In reality, they're aren't any more likely to speak another language (probably less) than (Anglo-)Canadians are.

Only Canadian Anglophones are "forced" to learn another language. Brits and Americans don't lose jobs and other opportunities because of it so of course there is more resentment in Canada. Boomer Anglos even very open minded ones really don't understand why everyone in Quebec can't (let alone doesn't) "just speak English. In California and Florida where Spanish is needed to advance in some professions you see the same kind of backlash.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Only Canadian Anglophones are "forced" to learn another language. Brits and Americans don't lose jobs and other opportunities because of it so of course there is more resentment in Canada. Boomer Anglos even very open minded ones really don't understand why everyone in Quebec can't (let alone doesn't) "just speak English. In California and Florida where Spanish is needed to advance in some professions you see the same kind of backlash.

You've summed up the perceptions and sentiments quite accurately.

Whether I agree with their validity or not.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by lio45

Same here.

Carney will win the “red mailbox” ridings in Quebec, but as we get to know him a bit more, I’d be surprised if he can pull off a Layton or JT level result.

The first French debate I think will help bring us back to reality.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

The first French debate I think will help bring us back to reality.

Yes Mr Polievre speaks well but isn't willing to stand up for Quebec against Trump and Mr Blanchet can't either from outside of Government. Now is the time for a strong defender of Quebec AND the rest of Canada to be Prime Minister.

Another 10 soundbites like that and ignore the questions and he'll hold his own. Don't do anything stupid like go on tout le monde en parle.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is it?

That was my thought too.

During his speech (read from notes) in Paris, his French sounded worse than most British prime ministers. I think it's jarring for a Canadian prime minister. More fundamentally, I think it says a lot about Canada if someone can reach to the top (I don't specifically mean being PM) with so little knowledge of French. The reverse (reaching to the top with as little knowledge of English) would of course be impossible (outside of the narrow confines of Québec of course).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Some of the seeming hesitancy comes from the way he speaks in 3-4 word "bites".

It's not just hesitancy, it's also the pronunciation of words which is just atrocious. When English speakers speak French as bad as him, I usually prefer they stick to English, as it makes it difficult to listen to them in French.

On a side note, Ursual von der Leyen speaks better French than him. That says a lot.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes Mr Polievre speaks well but isn't willing to stand up for Quebec against Trump and Mr Blanchet can't either from outside of Government. Now is the time for a strong defender of Quebec AND the rest of Canada to be Prime Minister.

Another 10 soundbites like that and ignore the questions and he'll hold his own. Don't do anything stupid like go on tout le monde en parle.

This is all jingoistic gobbledegook from the Anglo-Canadian bubble that only English Canada would believe in.

In the francophone media (RDI, TVA etc), there is no prominent voice arguing that Carney is the sole "strong defender" of Quebec, or whatever nonsense you're spewing at the moment.

[mousquet]

Macron's oral English sounds terrible too. I laugh when our media says he is (somewhat) fluent.
That's a joke.

I even suspect he does it on purpose to some extent, overdoing the French r pronunciation because it is supposed stylish or sexy to English-speakers...
Many of them would be disappointed if we didn't do it, or so I heard. They think the overdone French accent is something pleasant or funny, at least to their ears (certainly not to mine).
Besides, Macron does some grammar mistakes out of carelessness that a 10th-grade kid should no longer do.
I have to read English-written documentation every day and my English is better than his.

Heck, we're not trying to be gentle seducers these days. We should be trying to be serious, reliable and relentless.

[Acajack]

Because of where I grew up and where I live I have lots of experience deciphering some very approximate French spoken by anglophone Canadians.

I've seen videos in recent days of Mark Carney speaking French where I honestly had no idea what he meant.

That has never happened with Pierre Poilievre, Jagmeet Singh, Jack Layton and almost never with Stephen Harper.

This is not to say that I don't think Mark Carney could win the election and remain Prime Minister, and that his lack of French will sink him 100%.

Only that the people who say his French is just fine or rapidly improving are wrong.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I think a Canadian PM should be bilingual, just to set a proper role model to every Canadian citizen.

The hypocrisy among those here saying it doesn't matter is of course how they would react if the PM of Canada spoke virtually no English. I mean, suppose a Liberal Pauline Marois would become PM of Canada, unable to clearly express herself in English when talking to them. How would they react?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If Québec were on its own it would be in 6th place worldwide.

Canada with Québec is 18th.

Canada-sans-Québec would slip to 29th place, five spots behind the US.

https://www.lapresse.ca/dialogue/chr...source%253Dlpp

Without looking... number of hours of sex per month?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The hypocrisy among those here saying it doesn't matter is of course how they would react if the PM of Canada spoke virtually no English. I mean, suppose a Liberal Pauline Marois would become PM of Canada, unable to clearly express herself in English when talking to them. How would they react?

From time to time there are Canadian federal Ministers who speak no English or very little English.

Justin Trudeau had one by the name of Diane Lebouthillier.

In some circles at least people found it grossly unacceptable that she could be a Minister and not speak English.

Of course, probably half of the Ministers in the Cabinet speak no French whatsoever and probably understand almost none of it. I bet you Mme Lebouthillier can at least read a newspaper or a report in English, or understand a news broadcast.

Most Liberal Ministers and MPs from the ROC certainly cannot do the same in French.

Rules for thee but not for me.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But my guess is that it probably would be just be a one-time thing. Not the heralding of a new era in Quebec-Canada politics.

My feeling too. The more votes he gets in Québec, the higher the fall once domestic issues resurface after the end of that silly crisis.

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The hypocrisy among those here saying it doesn't matter is of course how they would react if the PM of Canada spoke virtually no English. I mean, suppose a Liberal Pauline Marois would become PM of Canada, unable to clearly express herself in English when talking to them. How would they react?

Nice strawman. Go sip some wine from your vineyard before Trump slaps a tariff on it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Macron's oral English sounds terrible too. I laugh when our media says he is (somewhat) fluent.
That's a joke.

I laugh too. Although to be fair, he speaks English better than Carney speaks French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Nice strawman. Go sip some wine from your vineyard before Trump slaps a tariff on it.

I'd argue that the real strawman is more the argument (that some make) that a Prime Minister of Canada should not have to be bilingual and it would be OK if they spoke only either official language, and that magnimous awesome ROCers would be perfectly OK with this. (And that by extension that Quebecers are highly unreasonable because they wouldn't accept it.)

What enables the strawman is that Canadian, continental and global power relationships, past and present, make the rise of a Prime Minister who speaks no English totally impossible.

Basically the equivalent of a super rich guy saying there should be no taxes to pay for social services, knowing full well he doesn't need them and can pay for everything himself.