GO/VIA Transit

[matt602]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

https://twitter.com/GOExpansion/stat...001%2Fpage-127

Apparently Confederation GO will finally (!!!) start construction this summer.

Slot this one firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category for me.

I'm also in the same category but its at least feasbile. I've seen photos of some insane crowds on the Niagara Falls seasonal GO train service this summer and apparently ridership at West Harbour has also been picking up since it went all day 2 way. Makes a pretty good case to finally start the barebones station platform at least at Confederation.

[mikevbar1]

With Confederation starting up, anyone think there are other opportunities for simple infill stations? Centre mall comes to mind, Dundurn, maybe Gage park if they ever sort out improving CPs corridor.

[Innsertnamehere]

I don't think GO would add more than one more stop between West Harbor and Confederation, or the stopping distances would get too dense for GO trains. Probably one at Ottawa St would be my bet.

Regardless, it's not in any planning documents at all, and I'd rather GO focus on extending 15-minute RER service to West Harbor or even preferably Hamilton Centre first.

[Berklon]

I don't think there's enough usage/demand for a station between West Harbor and Confederation. Surprised that Confederation itself is happening - even though it was planned for a while.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I don't think GO would add more than one more stop between West Harbor and Confederation, or the stopping distances would get too dense for GO trains. Probably one at Ottawa St would be my bet.

Regardless, it's not in any planning documents at all, and I'd rather GO focus on extending 15-minute RER service to West Harbor or even preferably Hamilton Centre first.

I'm hoping/betting the government will expect the redevelopment of Centre on Barton to include a Go train station paid for by the development. That's likely a long way away, and we shouldn't even expect to hear anything about that until Niagara and Confederation get at least hourly service all day.

[Innsertnamehere]

I believe the plan is to extend hourly service to Confederation essentially as soon as it opens, and potentially even 30-minute service as it sounds like that will be coming to West Harbour before Confederation opens.

There are no plans for hourly service to Niagara right now though, the business case for the Niagara extension identified a preferred service model of bi-hourly off-peak service into Niagara.

[NortheastWind]

I passed Confederation Station yesterday. Fencing has been erected and Ellis Don has sea containers on site.

[mikevbar1]

Originally Posted by NortheastWind

I passed Confederation Station yesterday. Fencing has been erected and Ellis Don has sea containers on site.

Glad this is finally moving. The contract should also include an additional track (?) or some track work to Confederation, so this is a bigger project than it seems. I’d imagine half-hourly service is imminent as this station nears completion.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by NortheastWind

I passed Confederation Station yesterday. Fencing has been erected and Ellis Don has sea containers on site.

hopefully it means something!

[matt602]

The 2 stations in Niagara were just transferred to the Region and they have plans to massively renovate and expand both of them so maybe that put a fire under GO's butt to get this thing going as well. Hopefully they'll also finally put that connecting track and switch in on the East side of West Harbour so the seasonal train to NF can service 2 stations in Hamilton.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by matt602

The 2 stations in Niagara were just transferred to the Region and they have plans to massively renovate and expand both of them so maybe that put a fire under GO's butt to get this thing going as well. Hopefully they'll also finally put that connecting track and switch in on the East side of West Harbour so the seasonal train to NF can service 2 stations in Hamilton.

I believe the plan as a part of Confederation GO, and part of the reason the station is so expensive, is that GO will be adding a new track between West Harbour and Confederation to allow GO to run all-day service to the new station without interfering with CN Operations. It will then connect with the mainline past Confederation.

Or at least that's my understanding.

Confederation GO is really a pretty big deal, it's not just going to be a few peak hour trains a day. It will likely have 30 minute all day service from opening day, assuming that the apparently imminent 30 minute service to West Harbour is extended.

[mikevbar1]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I believe the plan as a part of Confederation GO, and part of the reason the station is so expensive, is that GO will be adding a new track between West Harbour and Confederation to allow GO to run all-day service to the new station without interfering with CN Operations. It will then connect with the mainline past Confederation.

Or at least that's my understanding.

Confederation GO is really a pretty big deal, it's not just going to be a few peak hour trains a day. It will likely have 30 minute all day service from opening day, assuming that the apparently imminent 30 minute service to West Harbour is extended.

This lines up with what I've read. It should actually unlock trip potential from Hamilton to Grimsby and Niagara as a whole, since GO trains no longer have to back out of WH. We will supposedly be seeing half-hourly service to WH soon, and eventually, Confederation, which wil be our standard of service for likely a long time as indicated in Metrolinx's 2041 TMP. 15-minute service Isn't planned for a while, likely not until more diesel locos are made available from GO electrification.

While I'm bummed we aren't getting electrification extended here, it does feel nice knowing there will be a semi-dedicated fleet of diesel trains for Hamiltonians only, which will have a dedicated service pattern that will result in very quick travel times to Union. I believe GO stated its in the ballpark of 56 minutes, if not better from WH.

[Innsertnamehere]

I believe the Niagara GO expansion business case also contemplates making Hamilton trains express all day long, and introducing "super express" services as well which make even more limited stop patterns east of Burlington. That is what would deliver sub-1 hour travel times to Hamilton.

Even without Hamilton getting electrification, GO service should be far better than it is today.

[Dengler Avenue]

At that point, the 16 Go Bus really should be obsolete.

[mikevbar1]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I believe the Niagara GO expansion business case also contemplates making Hamilton trains express all day long, and introducing "super express" services as well which make even more limited stop patterns east of Burlington. That is what would deliver sub-1 hour travel times to Hamilton.

Even without Hamilton getting electrification, GO service should be far better than it is today.

Yes, this is almost certainly the case. I wish I had pictures from the business case showing a potential service model from 4 years ago, but alas I don’t as I’m on my phone. The service would effectively make all stops from confederation to Burlington/Bronte, and then direct to Union. From the data I’ve seen, Hamilton GO riders treat the trip more like an intercity trip rather than a more traditional commuter one (think how many people get on in Burlington and Oakville), and the ridership reflects this atm. I think the express to Union will only serve to benefit Hamiltonians if this remains the case.

Now for some opinions. I would make a case that a few Hamilton trains should maybe stop at Port Credit as well once the Hurontario LRT is open. Making it possible/easier to use the whole transit network will go a long way for making Hamiltonians comfortable with integrating a bit more with the GTA, and there are major trip generators all along the route.

Overall I think DB will come up with a much better service pattern than whatever Mx has drafted in the past, considering they’ve already thrown “just” 15-minute service on the electrified network out the window. They may try to accelerate 20-15 minute service to Hamilton by retaining more diesels, which would really go a long way. Not to get too fantastical, but local trains that don’t head to Union would be very welcome too and would be a good use of the trains, while also potentially serving as an employment opportunity here. The ultimate goal IMO is to bring Centre/Hunter GO up to snuff, which Mx has kicked the can on because it’s going to be stupid expensive and isn’t really urgent. In such a scenario I’d prefer to see them split the services between WH and Centre GO, perhaps with the so-called “super express” trains only going to Centre GO and the local/regular express trains to WH-Confederation, since that’s Mx’s real egg basket here.

[Innsertnamehere]

the super express will most likely go Niagara way as those GO trains are the real regional, non commuter services. Not a lot of trips from St. Kitts to Toronto will be true commuter pattern trips.

[ScreamingViking]

As GO evolves I hope it does become less Union-focused. Two-way all-day service is meant to help do that and give people a rail option for trips that don't involve commuting to downtown Toronto... will the demand justify the service plan? I think so, though it will take time, and be very dependent on the transit connections at destinations and auto trips being much less attractive than they are today.

Hamilton's stations would be well-positioned to take advantage of inbound services -- especially compared to stations that are largely suburban -- with much within walking distance particularly for the GO Centre, and the local transit improvements that are on the way. But it's still fairly easy to drive into downtown and the employment density would have to rise despite it being a relatively large node in the city.

The GO Centre has some big limitations. It's a shame, it's a beautiful station and ideally situated. Hopefully more service can be provided, but that will be up to what CP is willing to negotiate and the maximum capacity of the tunnel. The poor rail connections to CN's main corridor on the east side is not something that would easily be changed either.

Originally Posted by mikevbar1

Overall I think DB will come up with a much better service pattern than whatever Mx has drafted in the past, considering they’ve already thrown “just” 15-minute service on the electrified network out the window. They may try to accelerate 20-15 minute service to Hamilton by retaining more diesels, which would really go a long way. Not to get too fantastical, but local trains that don’t head to Union would be very welcome too and would be a good use of the trains, while also potentially serving as an employment opportunity here. The ultimate goal IMO is to bring Centre/Hunter GO up to snuff, which Mx has kicked the can on because it’s going to be stupid expensive and isn’t really urgent. In such a scenario I’d prefer to see them split the services between WH and Centre GO, perhaps with the so-called “super express” trains only going to Centre GO and the local/regular express trains to WH-Confederation, since that’s Mx’s real egg basket here.

[mikevbar1]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

As GO evolves I hope it does become less Union-focused. Two-way all-day service is meant to help do that and give people a rail option for trips that don't involve commuting to downtown Toronto... will the demand justify the service plan? I think so, though it will take time, and be very dependent on the transit connections at destinations and auto trips being much less attractive than they are today.

Hamilton's stations would be well-positioned to take advantage of inbound services -- especially compared to stations that are largely suburban -- with much within walking distance, particularly for the GO Centre, and the local transit improvements that are on the way. But it's still fairly easy to drive into downtown and the employment density would have to rise despite it being a relatively large node in the city.

The GO Centre has some big limitations. It's a shame, it's a beautiful station and ideally situated. Hopefully more service can be provided, but that will be up to what CP is willing to negotiate and the maximum capacity of the tunnel. The poor rail connections to CN's main corridor on the east side is not something that would easily be changed either.

I agree, GO Centre is beautiful and is deserving of being a central station. However, CP really bottlenecked its use with their tunnel (perhaps by design?) and there isn't really a clear way to fix it without a full rebuild, which is a lot more than Mx or the city wants to cough up. To gain access to the east side is a non-starter unless we reactivate rail on the beachfront, which while a great idea is also too expensive to consider right now.

GO has been underinvested in now for decades. With DB at the helm, the core GO network will be a true S-Bahn, full stop. It can, and will, easily absorb a significant amount of demand both from new park-n-ride commuters and ideally existing transit users. Much of the GTHA is at a density that high-quality buses feeding into strong rail connections will work pretty well, effectively becoming the TTC on steroids. It is going to be transformational, and I always feel a bit jealous that no one has put up capital to extend electrification just a little bit to West Harbour, but I digress. We are positioned at the axiom of the GO line with the most compelling trips outside of Union, so I think we are going to be OK.

[Innsertnamehere]

My understanding is that the tunnel is wide enough to be double tracked, and indeed even was double tracked at one time, but doing so means CP would have to give up double-stacked containers on the corridor due to the arched ceiling shape.

Which is a damn shame.

I wonder what the condition of the tunnel is and if it'll need major reconstruction in the next few decades anyway, it may make enabling double tracks through it a bit easier to swallow.

Metrolinx also isn't completely adverse to tunneling for GO trains, they just completed a new ~200 metre tunnel under the 401 for the Kitchener line which was a full bore tunnel (unlike the Hunter St tunnel which is really more of an artificial deck over the rail corridor I believe). Makes me wonder if they would ever consider a ~600 metre bored tunnel adjacent to the existing CP tunnel.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

My understanding is that the tunnel is wide enough to be double tracked, and indeed even was double tracked at one time, but doing so means CP would have to give up double-stacked containers on the corridor due to the arched ceiling shape.

Which is a damn shame.

I wonder what the condition of the tunnel is and if it'll need major reconstruction in the next few decades anyway, it may make enabling double tracks through it a bit easier to swallow.

Metrolinx also isn't completely adverse to tunneling for GO trains, they just completed a new ~200 metre tunnel under the 401 for the Kitchener line which was a full bore tunnel (unlike the Hunter St tunnel which is really more of an artificial deck over the rail corridor I believe). Makes me wonder if they would ever consider a ~600 metre bored tunnel adjacent to the existing CP tunnel.

I knew I'd seen an old photo or two of double-track through that tunnel... found one:


Source

A return to two-track might be pretty tight for today's trains (and safety standards) but I wonder if the tunnel could be widened a bit. I recall past news stories that mentioned technically it could be done, but the worry was disturbing foundations of larger buildings that are very close. But given how many new buildings have gone up cheek-to-cheek with older ones in the recent past, with deep pits, you'd think it would be more practical to do now? CP would raise holy hell though at losing access to their track for any length of time.

Better management of the single track portion may be all that is feasible for now. It's not like there are freights constantly in motion along that corridor, or that we're talking about passenger trains running on the 10s.