Rapid Transit

[highwater]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Months ago I emailed the Hamilton Transit task force asking for a copy of the study that determined King as more favourable than Main, and have not been given a response of any kind.

Have you followed up? I'd be very interested to see that study also.

[realcity]

It should be on Main/Queenston.

[SteelTown]

The Olympic Line, started service today.

• Video Link

This is the model the B-Line is likely going to get so definitely watch the video. From my understanding Bombardier will be inviting Hamilton's rep to showcase the vehicle.

[omro]

I'm being told that the intention to pedestrianise King from International Village to Bay, which will result from putting the Light Rail both ways though that section of the downtown is part of a greater scheme to rebrand that zone as an inner city Mall. It isn't a new idea and is apparently one that the city has considered time and time again over the years, only to back off because I'm also told that, while this idea is good in theory and has been successful in other cities, most noteably European ones, Hamilton just isn't ready for it.

The culture and the attitude of "car is king" will just result in a belief that if King and the downtown are harder to get to by car then why bother. They believe that the downtown will, as a result, get a lot worse, before it will get better and that the LRT should go on Main, so that the fragile equilibrium that exists on King at this time, isn't disturbed to its detriment.

The true PR benefit of LRT, which is going to be lost here, at least initially, is to make people believe that their ability to get to the downtown has been enhanced: Yes they can take car, bus and now the new shiny LRT. However, by completely denying car access to a section of downtown for the LRT you'll have people complaining from the start, damn that LRT, I can't get to downtown by car anymore if I need to quickly, I'll go to "insert name of alternate shopping destination accessible by car".

That's not to say you can't one day pedestrianise parts of King around Gore Park and International Village. However, you can't do this before the area has enough "destinations" to draw peope to them, which it currently does not, and before enough time has passed for the new ways to get downtown have both sunk in to the collective consciousness and been appreciated as alternatives to taking a car to the downtown.

[flar]

I agree with what omro said, and I'll add that Ottawa is probably as ready as any city in Canada for a pedestrian mall, but it has failed miserably here. Below is a photo of Sparks St. last Saturday. Mind you it is filled with pedestrians on weekdays, but they are just office workers walking from point A to point B.


the rest of downtown Ottawa: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=177688


Ottawa is a thriving city, every commercial district except Sparks St. is vibrant and filled with stores. Transit use is among the highest in the country (I see executive level people with 6 figure salaries on the bus every day). But Sparks St has abandoned stores and is almost deserted outside business hours.

[omro]

And just to note... people, who remember that far back, will know that I favour pedestrianised areas. They are very common in the UK, especially within city centres. However, this opinion has been tempered by my observations and now greater understanding of Hamilton. I don't believe King Street will be able to survive pedestrianisation until it has evolved into an 18-24hr destination that can sustain it.

To bring things back to the point. LRT should go on Main, allowing King to maintain it's status quo and benefit from the spill-off from the development dollars that LRT will bring, which would result in an evolution without harming what is currently there. And once a magnetic business, shopping and nightlife zone has been created, which can draw foot traffic to the core at all hours, then pedestrianisation could be considered.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Splitting your 'high street' and your 'transit street' works well in Calgary. The pedestrian mall on 8th there allows cars in the evenings however, and just enough parking as a teaser to get people down to the restaurants.

[SteelTown]

Sparks St doesn't have two way LRT going along it. That's potentially thousands of customers zipping on by each day. Ours will only be a small section of King St - John to Wellington (one city block).

[flar]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Sparks St doesn't have two way LRT going along it. That's potentially thousands of customers zipping on by each day. Ours will only be a small section of King St - John to Wellington.

Buffalo's does, and it's deader than Sparks. Having people on the street is one thing, having destinations on the street, as omro says, is another. Sparks is packed on weekdays, but they're just coming off the transitway and walking to their offices. They're not buying anything, it's not a destination, it's just en route to somewhere else.

[omro]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Sparks St doesn't have two way LRT going along it. That's potentially thousands of customers zipping on by each day. Ours will only be a small section of King St - John to Wellington.

True enough, but what I wrote does say that even that will be a challenge for King, especially to begin with during construction and the fall out from no car traffic until the community consciousness includes a car free zone. Hamilton's downtown isn't yet ready for that.

At the moment, the car visitors can come from all directions. The LRT is only going to bring people in from the East and West. If downtown becomes harder to access by car, the ingrained car culture in this city will result in people writing off the downtown as a destination.

It's chicken and the egg. What to do first? Build a vibrant downtown that you then make more pedestrian friendly to maintain and enhance the vibrancy or make a more pedestrian friendly downtown in the hope that is creates a vibrant place to be.

[SteelTown]

Bufffalo is basically a whole Main St and ours will be a short one city block. The rest will have cars and LRT combined just not the International Village.

[markbarbera]

Deciding to run LRT on King with exclusive LRT/pedestrian on King downtown would help maintain the City's near-perfect track record of taking a golden opportunity and completely squandering it.

The Hamilton Transit task force should be dragged by the ear to Buffalo and shown how "well" the exclusive LRT/Pedestrian zone through their downtown worked for them. Buffalo learned their lesson the hard way, and are now reintroducing automobile traffic and curbside parking in their downtown alongside the rail line. We need to take in the lessons learned there before we dig up the ground and create the same mistakes. If we don't we deserve the crap we pile upon ourselves.

[harls]

Originally Posted by flar

I agree with what omro said, and I'll add that Ottawa is probably as ready as any city in Canada for a pedestrian mall, but it has failed miserably here. Below is a photo of Sparks St. last Saturday. Mind you it is filled with pedestrians on weekdays, but they are just office workers walking from point A to point B.


the rest of downtown Ottawa: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=177688


Ottawa is a thriving city, every commercial district except Sparks St. is vibrant and filled with stores. Transit use is among the highest in the country (I see executive level people with 6 figure salaries on the bus every day). But Sparks St has abandoned stores and is almost deserted outside business hours.

And here it is on a weekday, at lunch hour, during a hot summer day - at pretty much the exact same spot as your photo. Can you spot the difference?

[omro]

I see your point, however there aren't a pair of LRT tracks requiring people to get out of the way whenever the streetcar trundles through. You really don't want pedestrians getting in the way of your transit anymore than you want cars getting in the way of it. A pedestrian and LRT shared King will still have a laneway for the LRT and people will have to stick the sidewalks for safety.

The LRT really should be in dedicated pedestrian free lanes on Main.

[flar]

Originally Posted by harls

And here it is on a weekday, at lunch hour, during a hot summer day - at pretty much the exact same spot as your photo. Can you spot the difference?

I acknowledge it is filled with people during business hours, but it's still a failure as a retail street and as a destination, especially considering the large amount of tourism in the area and more successful commercial areas close by: Elgin, Bank, Rideau and the Market.

[hamtransithistory]

Originally Posted by harls

And here it is on a weekday, at lunch hour, during a hot summer day - at pretty much the exact same spot as your photo. Can you spot the difference?

The difference is the words 'lunch hour'

I've been on Sparks street on a weekday evening in June, and you could fire a cannon and not worry about hitting anyone.

I would like to have the LRT on King for sentimental reasons, but I'm forced to agree that this part of King is too economically fragile to have several years of construction followed by a ban on cars.

King is so narrow in the Int. Village that even a partial solution (i.e LRT in mixed traffic with priority signals, except during rush hours when cars are banned from King between Wellington and Mary) probably wouldn't work.

Most good pedestrian areas have some sort of combination of the following:
(can't find one for eats)
And right now the Int. Village doesn't have enough of these

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Sparks St doesn't have two way LRT going along it. That's potentially thousands of customers zipping on by each day. Ours will only be a small section of King St - John to Wellington (one city block).

Wellington to John contains five or six blocks, approximately the same distance from John to Caroline. Wellington to Mary contains three or four blocks that represent a quarter of the downtown (Wellington > Queen) length of King -- about the length of the southern face of Jackson Square from James to Bay (presumably that "short one city block").

A two-lane LRT line makes IV car-free without question, unless you remove sidewalks, that stretch is essentially two-lane as it stands. I always assumed they'd stop LRT-only at Mary because of the Crowne Plaza, and that they'd use the pedestrianized Gore as a fulcrum to extend the car-free zone to James at a later date.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by omro

I see your point, however there aren't a pair of LRT tracks requiring people to get out of the way whenever the streetcar trundles through. You really don't want pedestrians getting in the way of your transit anymore than you want cars getting in the way of it. A pedestrian and LRT shared King will still have a laneway for the LRT and people will have to stick the sidewalks for safety.

The LRT really should be in dedicated pedestrian free lanes on Main.

I agree.

If LRT is on main I think they could have a "gateway" to the international village. Put a major LRT stop on Main in front of, for example, Spring St. and turn it into pedestrian only street from Main to King. Put up a nice entrance sign (like for Downtown or Hess Village) welcoming people to the international village. That way you can draw people from LRT into the international village in a friendly way.

[omro]

This line from the letter to the BIAs worries me:

It is important to note that, at this time, no decisions have been made by City Council, other than the endorsement of Light Rail Transit (LRT) over Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) and to pursue 100% capital funding from the Province.

What if the province says no to 100% funding...

Again, I'm feeling that LRT on King was not thought through. There are just so many options.

These assumptions are based on numerous study findings, City staff input, consultation with experts in rapid transit planning and public input.

What if the Feasibility Study, after a year says that King is just unfeasible... or only feasible if shoe-horned into place.

I have this dread that we're being set up for a disappointment.

[harls]

Sorry.. I wasn't trying to be an ass. I know Sparks is empty most of the time.. didn't mean any ill-will. If I had taken that photo an hour later, it would be a ghost town!