[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Phalanx]

No, I sincerely doubt this was planned... just look at the reaction by Estabrooks - if it was a ploy, they wouldn't have called Epstein out like that.

Accepting the apology is the best thing the NDP could have done in this case. Publicly turfing Epstein makes him look like the victim, and he could play that for support. The rumour mill has been churning on the local news all day that Epstein is on his way out anyway - either through retirement at the next election, or leaving now and sitting as an independent. Either way he does it on his own power, and doesn't have the excuse of being 'forced out'.

The best part of all of this is that the focus on Epstein's breach of protocol has completely overshadowed his attempt to scare people with sticker shock.

A peaceful resolution also mostly takes away his opportunity to make hay with the issue.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I admit that I am a cynic but this all makes me wonder if this wasn't planned by the NDP in order to gauge public reaction. If it was overwhelmingly in favour of Howard Epstein they would reject the convention centre and if not they would accept. If so then they should accept the convention centre.

No, I think not. The supporters of Epstein are all NDP true believers and are a big part of the leftist fringe that used to make up the bulk of NDP support. He could push Dexter off the bridge and they would still support Der Kommissar. They do not reflect the views of the public at large. Given Epstein's apparently deliberate attempt to deceive the public by floating a total number instead of the much more manageable annual number, the reaction of people is even more worthless.

[phrenic]

"Leftist fringe". Lol. Unintentional humor is the best.

[Jonovision]

NDP decides not to punish MLA for leaking convention centre price tag

Epstein off the hook

T HE
NDP CAUCUS will not discipline MLA Howard Epstein for releasing confidential information about the cost of the proposed new Halifax convention centre.

Premier Darrell Dexter emerged from Wednesday’s caucus meeting saying that Epstein had expressed “deep sorrow" for providing the cost estimate — $160 mil lion — to the Coast weekly newspaper.

Epstein has explained that he just let the number slip during a long conversa tion, and his colleagues believe him, Dexter said.

“The caucus agreed to accept his apol ogy, agreed to accept that these were inadvertent, and that therefore there would not be any kind of disciplinary action taken against him," the premier said.

Epstein doesn’t hold any positions that come with a stipend, such as committee chair or caucus whip.

Dexter said Epstein will continue as the ministerial assistant for the community services minister and as part of a committee that reviews govern ment legislation. Neither posi tion comes with extra pay.

Epstein got the cost informa tion as part of a presentation at last week’s caucus meeting. He said the province and Halifax Regional Municipality would be expected to pay $57 million each and Ottawa would pay $46 mil lion.

The Halifax Chebucto MLA, first elected in 1998, said he took questions from his colleagues in the meeting, then waited outside for about 45 minutes for their verdict.

“Although they were unhappy that it occurred, they accepted what I said to them, which was that it was something I regretted, and I apologized to caucus for having let the number slip out, and I think on that basis, every one was satisfied, and we’re all going to move on together," Epstein said.

The convention centre is part of a roughly $500-million pro posal from developer Rank Inc.

that also includes a privately financed hotel and office tower.

Epstein is against the project for a long list of reasons, in cluding that he believes it is too rich for the province and that it would be a public-private part nership, which he opposes.

Dexter wouldn’t confirm the figures Epstein released. The premier said cabinet is waiting for some technical information before deciding whether to com mit funding for the convention centre part of the proposed com plex.

Dexter hadn’t commented publicly on Epstein since the news broke Monday. When asked for his reaction on the way into the meeting, he said simply, “That’s Howard."

Epstein is the only one of the six New Democrats who have served since 1998 who is not in cabinet. He said last year after the cabinet swearing-in that he was very disappointed not to be included.

He said Wednesday that other issues besides the convention centre have troubled him, before and after the NDP came to power. “Leaving caucus, either at their behest, or on my own motion, would be a very serious decision, and it wouldn’t be taken about one issue," Epstein said before the caucus reached its decision.

([email protected])

[Jonovision]

This project could go way of the stadium


Connect the dots of similarity between the new stadium that ended up in Moncton and the proposed downtown Halifax convention centre.

Let’s start with areas in com mon: political challenges, vocal opponents, the need for a cash infusion from taxpayers and promises of financial returns through economic activity.

Setting the bar a little higher has proven a daunting task in Halifax, where the word “no" almost always trumps taking a chance that something good might happen. A public invest ment in a large infrastructure project just might work, but more importantly for our habitu al naysayers, it might not.

Lily-livered politicians make sure it stays that way.

So let’s keep our heads in the sand, pretend generation after generation of our inspired youth hasn’t already left for greener pastures, and hang onto the belief that our soggy economy, aging population and dismal long-term outlook will improve all by themselves.

When there is a plan to build something new that might re quire one to look upward from the sidewalk, there is a rush to the barricades to demand a more modest six-storey proposal. You know, like they have in Den mark, or perhaps Des Moines.

That is sure to get those Toron to investors excited, eh?

Heritage clingers can’t help vociferously defending every rundown facade of a certain age, no matter what it would cost to restore it, and heaven knows, they certainly don’t plan to pay for it themselves.

At the same time, developers can’t help throwing on a few extra storeys. Extra space means extra revenue, while providing a fallback position a few storeys lower when the red tape folks yell that the storeys are too high. Climb-down positions are hardly new in the development world. In Halifax, they are an automatic prerequisite. Because that word “no" is waiting just around the corner.

The death of the Common wealth Games bid for Halifax, deemed too expensive, killed the plan to build the first stadium in Atlantic Canada with the help of federal money. No worries.

Moncton was happy to step in and nab the opportunity.

Mayor Peter Kelly will stand before the Halifax Chamber of Commerce today to talk about how great Halifax is doing. Never mind that the Uteck Bowl has been lost to Moncton, along with a future chance to host a CFL team. Never mind the recent rash of violent swarmings on our downtown streets.

The cats and chickens are under control, and we have a state-of-the-art clean harbour to swim in.

Well, not really. Council decid ed years ago to ignore industry advice on treatment levels for raw sewage and then tossed out the private partner in favour of a public project. Now expensive upgrades to meet proposed high er federal standards could be just around the corner.

The failure of the downtown treatment plant came at a price.

Meanwhile, I have lost count of how many times they ripped up Inglis Street to get those sewer lines right. All the same, the city has a very smelly problem there.

Just ask the highly taxed folks on Young Avenue how well the harbour cleanup project is work ing in their neighbourhood. They will answer through hankies over their noses.

The movement to kill the new convention centre for downtown Halifax is alive and well. The plan may not be perfect, but details will now be lost in the hue and cry over the price, thanks to NDP backbencher Howard Epstein.

The Halifax MLA, who has no track record of saying things by accident, says the $160-million price tag for the centre, shared with some MLAs at an NDP cau cus meeting, subsequently “slipped out" by accident during a media interview.

The NDP, with a need to cater to its urban Halifax base while keeping support in the many newly won rural seats that helped the party to form govern ment, is going to be in a sticky spot on the issue.

Premier Darrell Dexter hope fully won’t lapse further into the Kelly form of government: Waffle along, do little and hope for the best.

The dynamic optimists among us can speak of building a city, building a province and moving into the future with strong fi­nancial footholds and economic drawing cards that keep a down town moving.

Forty per cent of Nova Scotians live in a quasi-capital region that is surviving in spite of, rather than because of, its governments. Heck, at this rate, we will do well just to cling to the status quo.

([email protected])

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is an interesting number $2.28 million/year x 25 years = $57 million dollars the number that Howard Epstein stated was the amount that the municipality and province would each have to pay. However, he made it sound like a lump sum amount. It certainly sounds like this was meant to deceive people. That is what bothers me more than disclosing the information - people should be able to expect complete honesty from their elected politicians.

The 2.28 million number is misleading.

The math is not as simple as taking the total price and then simply dividing by the number of years.

There is interest cost and since there is no such thing as a 25 year mortgage with one payment, there is probably a rate reset in years 10 or 15, and possibly 20.

I really could careless about the centre, but i have to point out that the number taylor used in his article is very misleading as its not as simple as that.

[dmac26]

I wholeheartedly agree Halifax needs this trade centre/convention centre complex but I have a hard time rallying for this development when I dont think the architecture is that great and I dont think it utilizes the blocks that well.

I think on this forum everyone gets so ramped up to "add to the skyline" and "add height" but this one as a designer I just think looks like a cop-out cookie cutter building. I would like to see a convention centre take advantage of another site and maybe have a design competition to add some flavor into Halifax.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Heritage clingers can’t help vociferously defending every rundown facade of a certain age, no matter what it would cost to restore it, and heaven knows, they certainly don’t plan to pay for it themselves.

([email protected])

AWESOME.

I was never a fan of Marilla that much in past years, but lately she seems to have grown a set of big ones and has been making some really quite strong statements. Nice to see people in the press FINALLY standing up and calling a spade a spade, rather than just blinding repeating what they are fed.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by dmac26

I wholeheartedly agree Halifax needs this trade centre/convention centre complex but I have a hard time rallying for this development when I dont think the architecture is that great and I dont think it utilizes the blocks that well.

I think on this forum everyone gets so ramped up to "add to the skyline" and "add height" but this one as a designer I just think looks like a cop-out cookie cutter building. I would like to see a convention centre take advantage of another site and maybe have a design competition to add some flavor into Halifax.

I agree..but the fact is this is the site and this is what is going to be. If not we won't have a new convention centre.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I agree..but the fact is this is the site and this is what is going to be. If not we won't have a new convention centre.

I disagree.

I mean does anyone know why the Hardman Proposal was taken off the table by HRM?

[dmac26]

I disagree too that this HAS to be the site. I think it is backwards to put it all through just so we have a mediocre convention space rather than push again for a phenomenal space. Its up to the government now however.

[halifaxboyns]

Games costs didn’t initially worry councillors, convention centre does
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Thu, Sep 30 - 4:54 AM
A couple of Halifax councillors have recently questioned whether the proposed downtown convention centre complex is too rich for the city’s blood.

But during the 2014 Commonwealth Games bid fiasco, most regional councillors initially didn’t publicly express trepidation over the municipal cost of the international sports spectacle. Council opposition to the bid only surfaced relatively late in the process.

Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre) eventually broke from her council colleagues and frequently openly criticized the estimated cost of the Games.

The three levels of governments were willing to dish out $900 million for the Canada’s proposed $1.7-billion Games. Ottawa committed $400 million, the province pledged $300 million and Halifax city hall was to chip in $200 million.

Nova Scotia’s cabinet and regional council pulled their support, and the bid died suddenly in March 2007.

Proposed convention centre figures made public by NDP MLA Howard Epstein show the planned development will cost taxpayers about $160 million.

The province and HRM would be expected to dish out $57 million each, while the federal government would cover $46 million.

So $200 million for the 2014 Games didn’t seem to initially cause as much concern around the council table as $57 million for the proposed convention centre does.

How can that be?

Mayor Peter Kelly couldn’t answer that question this week in an interview. He said city officials don’t have the figures for the convention complex.

"Council collectively will make the decision" about its role in funding the development, said Kelly. "We need to go through the process (and) we need to get the detailed information and we need to then determine" whether the municipality can afford it.

Coun. Dawn Sloane (Halifax Downtown) has supported the planned project but recently acknowledged the proposed cost to the city is worrying.

The mayor said Tuesday the city’s share of the 2014 Games was likely to be significantly more than $200 million. That’s why council pulled the plug, he said after a council session.

Kelly said there was some vocal opposition from councillors regarding the bill for the Games. But the politicians were initially reluctant to pose hard questions to organizers as the proposed cost continued to rise.

( [email protected])

[someone123]

The sad thing is that the HRM government is much worse than a government that just says "no".

The current council mostly has a problem with larger projects and they delay them by calling for more studies or funding smaller items which are often wasteful. The money that might have been spent on large, meaningful projects ends up being frittered away. To add insult to injury, occasionally we get a random larger project like the Bedford rink that is not properly thought through.

The city doesn't have a timid, spendthrift council, it has an inept, directionless council.

The problem with saying no to the Rank site now is that we're 5 years into this process - this is how it takes 30 years to build needed replacement infrastructure. I agree that this is not the best site or plan but it's time to move forward instead of letting the downtown stagnate for another 5 years.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by dmac26

I disagree too that this HAS to be the site. I think it is backwards to put it all through just so we have a mediocre convention space rather than push again for a phenomenal space. Its up to the government now however.

Maybe so... but to go back to the drawing board after this site and developer has been selected and then designing a new centre I fear it would never get built. It would get bogged down in process legal issues law suits and politics for years. This is the site if its going to get built.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

The problem with saying no to the Rank site now is that we're 5 years into this process - this is how it takes 30 years to build needed replacement infrastructure. I agree that this is not the best site or plan but it's time to move forward instead of letting the downtown stagnate for another 5 years.

5 years? I thought the RFP didn't come out till 2008?

[beyeas]

Trade centre details coming next week, Dexter says

By DAVID JACKSON Provincial Reporter
Thu, Sep 30 - 1:09 PM

Nova Scotians will see details of the bid for a new Halifax convention centre next week, Premier Darrell Dexter said today.

Dexter said the plan to release the information had nothing to do with New Democrat backbencher Howard Epstein releasing the latest cost estimate of the project several days ago.

"The plan to release information and to brief other interested parties has always been to do that as quickly as we can," Dexter said after today's cabinet meeting.

Developer Rank Inc. submitted its proposal, which included boxes of documents, to government on July 19.

The convention centre would be part of a development costing in the range of $500 million slated for the former Halifax Herald property in downtown Halifax. It would include a hotel and office tower.

The proposal is for taxpayers to cover the cost of just the convention centre. Epstein revealed the estimate is $160 million, with the province and Halifax Regional Municipality paying $57 million each, and Ottawa the other $46 million.

Dexter wouldn't confirm those numbers.

The premier said the process on this project has been "completely open," unlike that of the Commonwealth Games bid in 2006-07.

"Very early on, we ordered the release of all the studies that had been done. As far as I know, I haven't seen this done in any other process," he said.

"Here we are now saying that we will, before any decision is made, release the bid details. This is, I would hope, that Nova Scotians would see this as the model of transparency. This is an important project for Halifax, this is an important project for the province. It is about how we go about determining priorities."

News of Epstein's leak to a reporter at The Coast newspaper broke Monday. He and his NDP colleagues got the cost information as part of a presentation about the convention centre last week.

Epstein said the information "slipped out" in a long conversation. He apologized to the caucus on Wednesday for the confidentiality breach, and New Democrat MLAs decided not to discipline him.

(djackson@herald.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by dmac26

I wholeheartedly agree Halifax needs this trade centre/convention centre complex but I have a hard time rallying for this development when I dont think the architecture is that great and I dont think it utilizes the blocks that well.

I think on this forum everyone gets so ramped up to "add to the skyline" and "add height" but this one as a designer I just think looks like a cop-out cookie cutter building. I would like to see a convention centre take advantage of another site and maybe have a design competition to add some flavor into Halifax.

I spent a lot of time touring around the Telus convention centre recently - thinking about this project. While I agree that putting the convention space underground isn't the greatest idea, it's not the first place to do it. Most convention spaces don't have natural light coming because people do power point presentations or displays and the light could be a problem. I know the Shaw Convention Centre and the Telus one here in Calgary don't have light into the convention seating spaces. BUT, there is massive windows to let light into the areas where people can mingle prior to going into the convention room for their presentation. That is where this project is lacking and that's the flaw in the design for me.

I'm hopeful that even if the project is supported, it could be redesigned so that the mingling spaces have more of a natural like and take advantage of the view, without somehow negatively affecting the convention space.

[spaustin]

If this doesn't proceed it won't be the end of the world (the rhetoric for both the pro and con side has gone way over the top). There is a Plan B for these blocks so it's not like it's all or nothing. The government could also start again with another request for information. It has happened before with government projects. Stuffing the convention centre underground and covering over Grafton Street are dumb ideas and the design isn't all that inspiring. Check out what Ottawa is building for $170 million:

http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/

It would be interesting to know why the Cogswell site was nixed. That would have took government money and leveraged it to do something that betters the city in a way that's greater than just a new convention centre. At the Cogswell, the convention centre would have been on the waterfront and certainly wouldn't have been buried deep underground. We could do so much better, and maybe it's worth waiting another 3-5 years for a better proposal than settling for this one.

[worldlyhaligonian]

All the arguments about the convention part being underground are rediculous... just false ammunition against this thing... the reality is that the opponents don't give a shit if the thing is in the core of the earth or up in the atmosphere.







I'm just gonna throw something out here... related to the convention centre, library, and stadium: who cares if we spend a moderate amount of public money??

We need all of these things to be a competitive city... thats the thing about municipal competitiveness, its not like the private sector, it NEEDS to be subsidized.

The people who are complaining about "tax dollars" are seriously the people that contribute the least to our tax base.

This isn't Montreal and the big O in the 70's... and the infrastructure from that period is still in use for the most part! Even with the high cost... the amortization must be half decent? Vancouver 2010 must be a huge success financially speaking!


If we have a million people (give or take) in this province and everybody had to shell out $100 bucks... we'd have 100 million right there? Why can't we create an optional buy in to some large project where everybody who contributes money becomes an owner?

That way all the wining people can be excluded and people will have a choice on the risk vs. return.

I would drop $1000 bucks on the chance that some project could pay dividends in the future... even if it wasn't profitable, owner access rights would make it worthwhile. This could be applied to the stadium and convention centre easily.


Is there some way a fund for owners can be setup... I would love to exclude anybody who doesn't want to pay up!!!


The too expensive argument is bullshit cover for "too tall"... Epstein must hate the environment if he wants all buildings to be 6 stories... that means sprawl... so what is it gonna be there bud?

[sdm]

Originally Posted by spaustin

If this doesn't proceed it won't be the end of the world (the rhetoric for both the pro and con side has gone way over the top). There is a Plan B for these blocks so it's not like it's all or nothing. The government could also start again with another request for information. It has happened before with government projects. Stuffing the convention centre underground and covering over Granville Street are dumb ideas and the design isn't all that inspiring. Check out what Ottawa is building for $170 million:

http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/

It would be interesting to know why the Cogswell site was nixed. That would have took government money and leveraged it to do something that betters the city in a way that's greater than just a new convention centre. At the Cogswell, the convention centre would have been on the waterfront and certainly wouldn't have been buried deep underground. We could do so much better, and maybe it's worth waiting another 3-5 years for a better proposal then settling for this one.

Very well put.

I don't know how many people attended the fusion event last evening, but i know personally there was something everyone should take away from that event.

For a city our size to have no less then sixteen projects either approved or pending approval is simple unheard of. I mean there are many larger cities who could only wish there was that much in the way of private development.

To all who say downtown is dying or dead is simply not the case. Yes things are slow; but that is the game in that real estate development is market driven and the market will dictate what happens (supply & demand).

What distrubs me is when people think that this proposal is the make or break for downtown's future, which is simply not the case.