Rail-based Transit Discussion

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Though to be fair, when I put on my "reality" hat and doing a bit of research, the GO system serves a catchment area of 7 million people with 625 kms of track, and gets 200k daily boardings on their trains. Doing the three "dream" lines would be 300 kms of track, and serve a substantially smaller population. Perhaps a good start would be a line to East Hants, with a feeder bus line to Truro?

GO is kind of tricky becase around half the ridership is limited to the small core stretch between Oshawa and Aldershot (near Hamilton). That stretch is around 105km which is entirely through built up areas. So that leaves the other roughly half of the riderhip to support about 520km. The Milton Line also carries about 15% on a 50km route so that leaves about a 70k daily ridership on 470km which is about 15k per 100km. So for the 300km dream routes to compare they be getting around 45k dairly ridership. Which would be ambitious since it's about 1/2 of Metro Transit's pre-pandemic ridership. But GO also uses huge 12 car locomotive-hauled double-deck trains which on those non-core routes run at a very low frequency.

Ours would be 2-3 car multiple unit trains run all day at higher frequency. Hopefully there would be a train every 1/2 hour peak and every hour or two off-peak per direction. Higher frequency helps attract ridership compared to service only in the peak-period and peak-direction while small trains need far fewer riders to justify each trip.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

GO is kind of tricky becase around half the ridership is limited to the small core stretch between Oshawa and Aldershot (near Hamilton). That stretch is around 105km which is entirely through built up areas. So that leaves the other roughly half of the riderhip to support about 520km. The Milton Line also carries about 15% on a 50km route so that leaves about a 70k daily ridership on 470km which is about 15k per 100km. So for the 300km dream routes to compare they be getting around 45k dairly ridership. Which would be ambitious since it's about 1/2 of Metro Transit's pre-pandemic ridership. But GO also uses huge 12 car locomotive-hauled double-deck trains which on those non-core routes run at a very low frequency.

Ours would be 2-3 car multiple unit trains run all day at higher frequency. Hopefully there would be a train every 1/2 hour peak and every hour or two off-peak per direction. Higher frequency helps attract ridership compared to service only in the peak-period and peak-direction while small trains need far fewer riders to justify each trip.

I think your own example shows how ridiculously ambitious it would be. 70k on 470km probably has the whole population of Nova Scotia within a short ride and can only manage 70k daily ridership.

[stevencourchene]

for me bike season just started this Saturday May 4th 2024 and will bike approx. 3 to 4 times a week as a way of commuting to and from work 8KM each way not to mention the times Ill bike for leisure.

I don't call my self a cyclist I don't have a fancy bike or wear fancy biking clothing but do get use of the bike lanes and trails and connectors in place for a more safe ride. i dont find cars to be bad when on a road without bike lanes i find it to be the busses and now some lanes we share and they are the worse to ride to close to you while biking.

im happy bike season is here.

[Binnacle]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/commuter-rail-cape-breton-feasibility-study-1.7250315

[OldDartmouthMark]

That’s interesting. By the map, it looks like a lot of rural/suburban areas could be served. In Halifax, the thought process seems to be that this wouldn’t be practical.

It will be interesting to see if it evolves past the study phase.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That’s interesting. By the map, it looks like a lot of rural/suburban areas could be served. In Halifax, the thought process seems to be that this wouldn’t be practical.

It will be interesting to see if it evolves past the study phase.

It probably won't as the International student population is about to take a huge hit thus reducing the primary need for better transit in CBRM. There are far more basic uses for any Provincial investments especially with the Food Banks and other support services in CB being very overstretched. The Island has for the most part been left behind except for Golf in Nova Scotia's recent boom as the only construction has been Provincially led with the new Hospital investments and NSCC.

[Keith P.]

Holy misplaced priorities, Batman.

Aside from traffic on the Glace Bay Highway that passes by CBU, there is zero actual need for such a thing in that area. Meanwhile, the HRM road network is a house of cards waiting to crash down with a single traffic incident on the wrong artery and overwhelmng volumes of traffic trying to get around.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Holy misplaced priorities, Batman.

Aside from traffic on the Glace Bay Highway that passes by CBU, there is zero actual need for such a thing in that area. Meanwhile, the HRM road network is a house of cards waiting to crash down with a single traffic incident on the wrong artery and overwhelmng volumes of traffic trying to get around.

Agreed, also due to Dartguard's comment about the fact that international student numbers at CBU are going to come way down. In an ideal world it would be nice to have something like this in Cape Breton; in the real world, the investment in transportation like this needs to be in Halifax and area.

[HarbingerDe]

Something rubs me wrong about Tim Houston being excited to talk about light rail in Cape Breton while refusing to even put forward the Provinces half of the required funding for HRM Bus Rapid Transit.

Ideally it would be nice if the entire province was interconnected by a reliable rail network, but these are some wildly skewed priorities.

The vast majority of future growth in NS is coming to the HRM. Hell it already came to the HRM. The road network is buckling under decades (centuries?) of both poor planning and a total lack of planning.

Fund BRT then start looking at light rail for the HRM.

[bartekci]

Originally Posted by HarbingerDe

Something rubs me wrong about Tim Houston being excited to talk about light rail in Cape Breton while refusing to even put forward the Provinces half of the required funding for HRM Bus Rapid Transit.

Ideally it would be nice if the entire province was interconnected by a reliable rail network, but these are some wildly skewed priorities.

The vast majority of future growth in NS is coming to the HRM. Hell it already came to the HRM. The road network is buckling under decades (centuries?) of both poor planning and a total lack of planning.

Fund BRT then start looking at light rail for the HRM.

The article seems to clearly state he's not interested in funding such a system. It's likely decades away.

I imagine the money put forward for the feasibility study is more of a job maker than anything.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by fatscat

The article seems to clearly state he's not interested in funding such a system. It's likely decades away.

I imagine the money put forward for the feasibility study is more of a job maker than anything.

Yes it no doubt will fund some consultants year end but there are local politics to Consider. The P.C.'s are relatively strong on the Island and there is strong local support to build a container port in Sydney. The very big missing piece is an upgraded and heavy Rail line to take said Containers off the Island and to points west. I would not be surprised that local CB Politicians are attempting an end run to upgrade Rail infrastructure therefore building an argument to rebuild the Off Island line. C.B.rs are experts at accessing other peoples money.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Yes it no doubt will fund some consultants year end but there are local politics to Consider. The P.C.'s are relatively strong on the Island and there is strong local support to build a container port in Sydney. The very big missing piece is an upgraded and heavy Rail line to take said Containers off the Island and to points west. I would not be surprised that local CB Politicians are attempting an end run to upgrade Rail infrastructure therefore building an argument to rebuild the Off Island line. C.B.rs are experts at accessing other peoples money.

Haha I spit my coffee out with that last line.
Capers definitely have a skewed idea of where the money comes from in NS. They usually do well when rural premiers are in power. To quote my cousin, when Rodney MacDonald won, there was "nothin but jiggs and reels" as he paved from Halifax right to his doorstep in Port Hood.

As a municipal service, this seems doomed to fail on the drawing board.
Tim knows that.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Haha I spit my coffee out with that last line.
Capers definitely have a skewed idea of where the money comes from in NS. They usually do well when rural premiers are in power. To quote my cousin, when Rodney MacDonald won, there was "nothin but jiggs and reels" as he paved from Halifax right to his doorstep in Port Hood.

As a municipal service, this seems doomed to fail on the drawing board.
Tim knows that.

The Sad thing about CB is that all the best have left. It's mostly scheemers and clever local Professional beggars that run the East part of the Island. Whenever the good Idea fairy comes up with another "It'l be good for the community" scheme, the first thing the regulars do is see if there is a Federal or Provincial Pot of Money to grab.There are very few times the locals actually dip into the Shoebox of Cash most of the older ones have stashed on their property.When David Dingwall testified about being "entitled to his entitlements " years ago he was hailed as a Hero back home. Cape Breton is not like Nova Scotia.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

The Sad thing about CB is that all the best have left. It's mostly scheemers and clever local Professional beggars that run the East part of the Island. Whenever the good Idea fairy comes up with another "It'l be good for the community" scheme, the first thing the regulars do is see if there is a Federal or Provincial Pot of Money to grab.There are very few times the locals actually dip into the Shoebox of Cash most of the older ones have stashed on their property.When David Dingwall testified about being "entitled to his entitlements " years ago he was hailed as a Hero back home. Cape Breton is not like Nova Scotia.

Honestly I'd say Halifax is not like Nova Scotia, where the residents of towns across the province don't want "city problems" and are proud of their small town sentiments. It's a North American issue really, people in small towns that can barely keep the lights on like it that way. They like to think the isolation that made those places distinct, still exists in the digital age. When really, their towns are just homogenized versions with a mill, mine or plant anchoring the towns economy and the same 10 retailers on the edge of town. It's always "the *insert city name* fault for the province or states problems and all they do is misappropriate funds and waste tax dollars..."

Capers are used to this song and dance of coming cap in hand, looking for funding for the next project meant to save the island's economy like this one. They know an election is close and nothing is better than some pork barrel politics.

I was surprised something so forward thinking was even suggested but Sydney is the 2nd largest city in the province after all. We should try to connect all the small towns that it consists of, it could use the investment to centralize a bit. If this is what it take to get the province back into commuter transit, I'm all for it.

It would be great to see a twice daily train connecting Sydney to Halifax, connecting a good chunk of the province along the way. Each town could encourage some TOD around each station where services already exist. The province could mandate a certain amount of housing to get the investment rolling. Thus forcing the towns to absorb larger amounts of new residents needed for a government with aspirations of doubling the population. All the while taking some of the pressure off Halifax while it goes through it's growing pains.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Honestly I'd say Halifax is not like Nova Scotia, where the residents of towns across the province don't want "city problems" and are proud of their small town sentiments. It's a North American issue really, people in small towns that can barely keep the lights on like it that way. They like to think the isolation that made those places distinct, still exists in the digital age. When really, their towns are just homogenized versions with a mill, mine or plant anchoring the towns economy and the same 10 retailers on the edge of town. It's always "the *insert city name* fault for the province or states problems and all they do is misappropriate funds and waste tax dollars..."

Capers are used to this song and dance of coming cap in hand, looking for funding for the next project meant to save the island's economy like this one. They know an election is close and nothing is better than some pork barrel politics.

I was surprised something so forward thinking was even suggested but Sydney is the 2nd largest city in the province after all. We should try to connect all the small towns that it consists of, it could use the investment to centralize a bit. If this is what it take to get the province back into commuter transit, I'm all for it.

It would be great to see a twice daily train connecting Sydney to Halifax, connecting a good chunk of the province along the way. Each town could encourage some TOD around each station where services already exist. The province could mandate a certain amount of housing to get the investment rolling. Thus forcing the towns to absorb larger amounts of new residents needed for a government with aspirations of doubling the population. All the while taking some of the pressure off Halifax while it goes through it's growing pains.

N.S. is actually the three different regions. Halifax, Rural Mainland N.S. and then C.B.. If the Province were to invest in a non Halifax rail system I think there is a better argument, and the wealth to pay for it, for a Valley route from Windsor to Coldbrook even Kingston as that would be a single line encompassing The Air Base at Greenwood through Kentville the shopping of New Minas to the University at Wolfville. Throw in the Michelin plant and Provincial jail at Waterville and boom built in market.

The Greater Greater Halifax area will stretch to that part of the valley and down to Bridgewater not to mention the 102 Corridor to Truro.Literally the heart of the Province and the bulk of future population and development will be in this new Golden Horseshoe for the coming decades.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

I was surprised something so forward thinking was even suggested but Sydney is the 2nd largest city in the province after all. We should try to connect all the small towns that it consists of, it could use the investment to centralize a bit. If this is what it take to get the province back into commuter transit, I'm all for it.

Absolutely, but we don't need rail for that. All of the small communities that comprise CBRM are connected by generously sized roads, a few rapid buses on a right-of-way could easily provide the same service as rail connection for a fraction of the cost.

[Corker]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

If the Province were to invest in a non Halifax rail system I think there is a better argument, and the wealth to pay for it, for a Valley route from Windsor to Coldbrook even Kingston as that would be a single line encompassing The Air Base at Greenwood through Kentville the shopping of New Minas to the University at Wolfville. Throw in the Michelin plant and Provincial jail at Waterville and boom built in market.

I agree that is the more logical route to start a longer distance commuter rail. However I was surprised when taking a walk in Middle Sackville earlier this year to see that the tracks, though still in place are showing the lack of use - there are trees growing in the middle of the rail lines and substantial brush growth clogging the ditches on either side. I suspect it would take some substantial work to bring it back to operational standard.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Corker

I agree that is the more logical route to start a longer distance commuter rail. However I was surprised when taking a walk in Middle Sackville earlier this year to see that the tracks, though still in place are showing the lack of use - there are trees growing in the middle of the rail lines and substantial brush growth clogging the ditches on either side. I suspect it would take some substantial work to bring it back to operational standard.

I agree that there is tremendous potential for commuter rail on that right of way. It is a minor miracle the ROW has been preserved but the track would certainly need a complete rebuild. The Virginia-based owner, Robert Schmidt, said in 2018, when his holding company Iron Road Railways acquired the Windsor Jct. - Windsor line from CN, that he could restore it in as little as six months, which seems wildly optimistic. It still angers me that the province had the option in 1993, when CP divested the line, to acquire it and lease it to an operator, something that has been done successfully by state, provincial and municipal governments throughout the US and Canada.

When the last train ran between Windsor and Windsor Jct. in 2010, the tracks were already in dismal shape with a 15 km/h speed restriction.


Tracks near Mount Uniacke, 2 November 2010. Source: NSHDPI

Eight years later, when Iron Road acquired the line from CN, the deterioration was even more advanced.


Tracks near Mount Uniacke, February 2018. Shaina Luck photo. Source: CBC

Head-shaking footnote: According to a piece in the Halifax Examiner, in 2018 a developer ripped up the tracks to build access roads for the Windgate subdivision near Windsor Jct. Neither the railway nor the municipality was aware.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks folks, I had no idea that old tracks still remained in some of those old defunct rail lines. I had assumed that pretty much all of them had been converted to "rails to trails" status.

I've said it here before, we could be onto something if it were possible to reclaim some of those old ROWs for commuter rail. I wish local politicians were able to think through complicated matters much better - i.e. if you intend to double the population in the province, where most will end up in Halifax and surrounding communities, then let's get ahead of the wave with transportation infrastructure.

I'm sure some here must get tired of me repeating myself on the topic, but damn, I think it's an important point that continually seems to be passed over in favour of adding more buses while taking away traditional traffic lanes. Sure, some of this has to happen, but talk about putting all our eggs in one basket (two if you consider the new ferry service, but that only serves a particular market unless you can get the masses to the ferry terminals in an efficient way).

Rather than regurgitating why commuter rail can't happen, it would be refreshing if they could come up with some ideas on how it could (or will!) happen...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks folks, I had no idea that old tracks still remained in some of those old defunct rail lines. I had assumed that pretty much all of them had been converted to "rails to trails" status.

I've said it here before, we could be onto something if it were possible to reclaim some of those old ROWs for commuter rail. I wish local politicians were able to think through complicated matters much better - i.e. if you intend to double the population in the province, where most will end up in Halifax and surrounding communities, then let's get ahead of the wave with transportation infrastructure.

I'm sure some here must get tired of me repeating myself on the topic, but damn, I think it's an important point that continually seems to be passed over in favour of adding more buses while taking away traditional traffic lanes. Sure, some of this has to happen, but talk about putting all our eggs in one basket (two if you consider the new ferry service, but that only serves a particular market unless you can get the masses to the ferry terminals in an efficient way).

Rather than regurgitating why commuter rail can't happen, it would be refreshing if they could come up with some ideas on how it could (or will!) happen...

Let’s go back in time 15 years to the first opportunity missed by HRM on this front, as discussed by members here who offered up some pretty good ideas, almost none of which actually happened, sadly. Read on from my post, there’s lots of good stuff afterwards:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4037783&postcount=51