Ontario Highways

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

It’s no longer in the map in my signature but thankfully I have taken a screenshot of it before:

Now that is interesting! But wouldn't happen unless we had 3 or 4 times our current population.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Now that is interesting! But wouldn't happen unless we had 3 or 4 times our current population.

Considering that for the last 40 years the population has been slowly shrinking, unless some major boom happens to draw ~100,000 people, sadly that won't happen.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Considering that for the last 40 years the population has been slowly shrinking, unless some major boom happens to draw ~100,000 people, sadly that won't happen.

Not necessarily. Kenora Bypass is pretty “outlandish” given its only 15.1K population.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Not necessarily. Kenora Bypass is pretty “outlandish” given its only 15.1K population.

The thing is, Timmins is more of a destination than a point on the map you must go through.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The thing is, Timmins is more of a destination than a point on the map you must go through.

Our fellow SSPers from Winnipeg may disagree.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Our fellow SSPers from Winnipeg may disagree.

What I mean is that Timmins is not on a major highway. It is off of the nearest major highway (11). Where as Kenora was directly on A major highway (17).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What I mean is that Timmins is not on a major highway. It is off of the nearest major highway (11). Where as Kenora was directly on A major highway (17).

This.

Looking at Timmins, there are 4 routes in and out:

101 East
101 West
144 South
655 North

Unless one is coming from the north or east and headed to Sudbury via 144 (or vice-versa) transiting through Timmins is not usually a requirement. Highway 11 serves as the major axis of transportation in the region.

I can’t imagine there is lots of through traffic to other places because they are mostly small towns.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Not necessarily. Kenora Bypass is pretty “outlandish” given its only 15.1K population.

There are tons of small towns that were bypassed by the 401. Bypasses aren’t just a function of town size, but the ratio of local to through traffic.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by thewave46

This.

Looking at Timmins, there are 4 routes in and out:

101 East
101 West
144 South
655 North

Unless one is coming from the north or east and headed to Sudbury via 144 (or vice-versa) transiting through Timmins is not usually a requirement. Highway 11 serves as the major axis of transportation in the region.

Although the first 3 are Kings Highways, they are not major in th sense of cross Canada traffic. That is why Timmins is a destination.

I can’t imagine there is lots of through traffic to other places because they are mostly small towns.

Originally Posted by thewave46

There are tons of small towns that were bypassed by the 401. Bypasses aren’t just a function of town size, but the ratio of local to through traffic.

This is the more important reason bypasses are made. This also goes back to the 407 should be made mandatory for all commercial traffic that does not end within the area south of it.
You would see 2 things come from that:
1) Much more congestion on the 407
2) A push for lower, if not no tolls on the 407.

[Dengler Avenue]

And, to the dismay of some of you, the 413…
By the way, on my way to the outlet mall at Halton Hills last night, I saw a sign saying “future site of Highway 413” around Highway 401 WB Exit 330.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

And, to the dismay of some of you, the 413…
By the way, on my way to the outlet mall at Halton Hills last night, I saw a sign saying “future site of Highway 413” around Highway 401 WB Exit 330.

They wouldn't need 413 if they removed tolls from the 407.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is the more important reason bypasses are made. This also goes back to the 407 should be made mandatory for all commercial traffic that does not end within the area south of it.

How would this be enforced? I don't think it could be done.

The only way a bypass could work this way is if it had very limited interchanges.

If the government really wants the 413 to be such a route, then that's how it should be designed. But I doubt it will be any different than other major highways with respect to having interchanges at arterials which cross it; there will be too much outcry from "folks" living along the route and especially "friends" with business interests that depend on the access.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

How would this be enforced? I don't think it could be done.

The only way a bypass could work this way is if it had very limited interchanges.

If the government really wants the 413 to be such a route, then that's how it should be designed. But I doubt it will be any different than other major highways with respect to having interchanges at arterials which cross it; there will be too much outcry from "folks" living along the route and especially "friends" with business interests that depend on the access.

Easy way, have inspection stations just past the exit for the 407on the 400 series highways.If their manifest is a place out of the 407 area, fine them for not using the designated route. Don't need it to be much more than that.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Easy way, have inspection stations just past the exit for the 407on the 400 series highways.If their manifest is a place out of the 407 area, fine them for not using the designated route. Don't need it to be much more than that.

The expense of setting up and operating more inspection stations would be big, never mind being able to find the space for them along sections of the 400-series network that have denser land uses (or sites that won't cause traffic/safety issues).

Many trucks have GPS units now, but to use them for billing and fines would probably create a whole mess of legal issues.

I think it would be better to incentivize the through-trucks to use the 407, rather than try to penalize them for not using it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

But we would want to inspect trucks that are going through the GTA and not using the 407... isn't that your idea? To make the through-trucks use the 407, as a bypass?

So you'd have to inspect the ones that aren't using it, travelling the other 400-series highways and arterials to get from one side of the GTA to another.

The expense of setting up and operating more inspection stations (never mind finding the space for them along sections of the 400-series network that have denser land uses) would be big.

Many trucks have GPS units now, but to use them for billing and fines would probably create a whole mess of legal issues.

I think it would be better to incentivize the through-trucks to use the 407, rather than penalize them for not using it.

I am guessing you have never heard of a fine. It is a monetary amount of sufficient value that deters undesirable actions from happening.

There is the space at 401 E, 401 W, and QEW T. 404 S and 400 S would be a challenge. The other 400 series seem to be easy enough.

Think of these not just checking your destination, but also checking the usual things. They wouldn't even need to be open 24/7.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing you have never heard of a fine. It is a monetary amount of sufficient value that deters undesirable actions from happening.

There is the space at 401 E, 401 W, and QEW T. 404 S and 400 S would be a challenge. The other 400 series seem to be easy enough.

Think of these not just checking your destination, but also checking the usual things. They wouldn't even need to be open 24/7.

Next thing you know, all the GTA municipalities will complain about truck convoys roaming on their roads. Those subscribed to Vision Zero will lose their sh*t.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Next thing you know, all the GTA municipalities will complain about truck convoys roaming on their roads. Those subscribed to Vision Zero will lose their sh*t.

I am guessing you also have never heard of a fine. Please see above.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing you also have never heard of a fine. Please see above.

Let’s just say, MTO, OPP and GTA municipal police don’t have that much time to burn, so asking them to patrol all 400-series expressway and neighbouring EDRs is impractical. This is not the Territorial District of Sudbury…

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Let’s just say, MTO, OPP and GTA municipal police don’t have that much time to burn, so asking them to patrol all 400-series expressway and neighbouring EDRs is impractical. This is not the Territorial District of Sudbury…

Hire more officers with the money from the fines.

[swimmer_spe]

Another option is a commercial vehicle congestion charge within the 407 that is higher than the cost of end to end use of the 407. Easier to set up. Easier to enforce.