Atlanta Beltline

[enthurzan]

I'm just saying - shouldn't they be trying to build as much trail as possible? Its been over a decade now since they broke ground on the first section of trail.

For reference on how fast it usually takes to build just the Beltline trail, not the interim gravel travel (which requires landscaping, wastewater pipe installation, sodding, pouring concrete for the actual trail, light installation) I took a look at this blog post by the Atlanta Beltline on their [URL="https://beltline.org/2021/05/19/southside-trail-construction-update/"] website . They are constructing a 0.8 mile segment of trail known as "segment 1" which is one of a total of six trail segments connecting Bill Kennedy Way next to I-20 and the current SW trail right at Murphy's Crossing.

Segment 1 is currently under construction. It is 0.8 miles long. Ground broke in January 2020, construction actually started in June 2020, and it is scheduled to be done by "Late Summer 2021" which I can assume is Sept 1 at the latest. So why did it take them 14 months to build 0.8 miles of trail? That is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. The entire Empire State Building was built in only 14 months (1 year, 45 days to be exact).

At this glacial pace, it would take 50.45 months, or 4 years and 2 months, to construct the remaining 2.89 mile long Southside Trail comprising of segments 2-6.

14 months/.8 mi = x months /2.89mi

This article (https://beltline.org/2021/05/18/atlanta-beltline-inc-receives-4-million-in-grant-funding-for-southside-trail/) states how the Southside trail was just awarded $4M for construction by the Atlanta Regional Commission, which is great, but I sure hope it doesn't take another 4 years to build that section.

At this point, they really should have all the engineering plans completed for every segment of the 22-mile loop. At this point, they should just be waiting on money to come in to actual fund construction, and if they already have the engineering plans, they can immediately break ground. Now I personally do not know why that small section of trail took 14 months to build, I am not an engineer on the project. Maybe out of curiosity I'll reach out to and go bother the PM, Hope Gists, whose email is on the website LOL. Would love to have a healthy/friendly conversation about the project and what goes into it. Do they not have enough workers or equipment to build faster? Is it lack of funds?

Really, I am just very disappointed at the pace and momentum of Beltline construction. Planners and engineers should be seeking to break ground as soon as possible. All surveying and engineering plans should be done by now, and if they are not, then surveyors should be sent out tomorrow morning at sunrise to immediately begin work. No more excuses.

[pica]

Originally Posted by enthurzan

So why did it take them 14 months to build 0.8 miles of trail? That is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. The entire Empire State Building was built in only 14 months (1 year, 45 days to be exact) ... Do they not have enough workers or equipment to build faster? Is it lack of funds?

The Empire State Building was built during the Great Depression. Construction labor was a little bit cheaper and easier to come by. It also didn't have to adhere to modern environmental or worker safety rules (five people died during its construction).

If you want to answer your question you need to look to a more modern example. The 700 ft. section of I-85 that collapsed in 2017 was rebuilt in 43 days at a cost of $15 million. The entire 0.8 mile segment 1 is expected to cost about $16 million. The I-85 bridge cost over $20,000 per foot to build. The first segment of the southside trail will come in at about $3800/foot. The state was willing to throw whatever it cost at that project because car commuters were being inconvenienced (and some of them had to ride transit to work; quelle horreur!)

That's why it takes longer to build. If you have a few million to throw at it I encourage you to donate. We'd all like to see it built faster but construction costs money, and we only pretend like that's not true when it comes to highway projects.

[bryantm3]

Was just looking at the northwest corridor on google maps yesterday. Now, did I dream this or is PATH doing this whole section of trail from Huff Rd to Armour?

Looking at the map kind of made it apparent why PATH is a good choice, given the amount of river/creek trails they've done. If you follow along Peachtree Creek west from Armour, and then at Bobby Jones go south and follow Tanyard Creek to its headwaters just south of I-75 along Loring Drive. I bet this is exactly where the trail is going. Apologize if this was obvious already, that part of the trail was always a blur to me and I had an "a ha!" moment.

[bryantm3]

Another "a ha" moment- if you follow Peachtree Creek west of Bobby Jones, it runs into the river right where the Silver Comet is supposed to come through. I don't know what the right of ways look like along there, but maybe using Peachtree Creek RoW for the Silver Comet connector trail is what they're going to do.

[GPBRDL]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

Another "a ha" moment- if you follow Peachtree Creek west of Bobby Jones, it runs into the river right where the Silver Comet is supposed to come through. I don't know what the right of ways look like along there, but maybe using Peachtree Creek RoW for the Silver Comet connector trail is what they're going to do.

Check out the PATH spring newsletter if you haven't already. They have a few pages on their current project timelines as well as a nice map. It is a good view of the Beltline and PATH trails. The plan currently is to link up with the Whetstone Creek trail and cut thru Tilford Yards.
https://issuu.com/pathfoundationtrails/docs/path_newsletter_spring2021-web

[montydawg]

It is much cheaper to build over longer periods of time with less equipment and fewer staff. It is easier to absorb material delivery delays, and equipment and personnel utilization is better. Imagine if you had a 10 man crew vs 40 man crew, and there is a rain delay for one day. You loose 4 times as much money with the larger crew. Also, it is harder to fit a larger crew all on the same worksite. I firmly believe they are building this in the best way possible using the resources they have. I also should mention from a urban development perspective, it is smart they are limiting the supply of ‘fresh Beltline’ over time, so developers will have more limited opportunities to build along the BeltLine at once, and theoretically the limited supply will encourage higher value developments. If they had 22 miles of supply all in 2012, we might have had track homes along the BeltLine, instead of denser apartments and offices. Their current strategy is supporting 20 years of high quality development, with transit being built *After* development and density is built, which is also the smarter use of money, instead of having a streetcar running down an undeveloped low density industrial area. I believe smart people are running this and they should be commended for their work.

[enthurzan]

Originally Posted by pica

If you want to answer your question you need to look to a more modern example. The 700 ft. section of I-85 that collapsed in 2017 was rebuilt in 43 days at a cost of $15 million. The entire 0.8 mile segment 1 is expected to cost about $16 million.

This is actually super helpful bc I could never find any numbers on how much it cost to build 1 mile of just beltline trail. I could find light rail cost estimates, but not the trail. So at $16 million for 0.8 miles then I can estimate that it costs $20 million per mile for Beltline trail, and for the full 22 miles, it will cost an estimated $440 million. Right now the paved sections of the Beltline, according to their website are the 2.4 mile Westside Trail, the 1.91 mile Eastide Trail, and the 1.25 mile Eastside Trail Extension near Hulsey Yard. If we include Southside Segment 1 as already "paid for" that means 6.36 miles of trail have been finished, while 15.64 miles remain. At a cost of $20 million a mile, they need another $312 million to finish it. This is where a federal grant would be extremely helpful.

Now granted, this is a LOT of money. The City of Atlanta's budget is ~$600 million per year, APS spends about $1 billion per year, and MARTA spends about $1.2 billion, half of which would be operating expenses. It's not like they have all this money laying around. Just to build 1 new mile of Beltline trail per year, they would need to set aside $20 million (not counting cost overruns), and it would still take 15 years to finish the Betline.

As for your comment about construction costs, that makes sense. They are prioritizing costs over speed. It makes sense to me that a 10 man crew with associated equipment is going to cost a lot less than a 40 man crew with equipment, especially considering in today's economy, labor is usually 2/3 of construction costs. I seriously wonder if there is a way to get construction costs down, or if you wanted to, you would have to change labor & safety laws and pay under union wages (if these construction crews are unionized, idk, Georgia is right to work, right?)


And hey, if I had millions of dollars laying around, instead of donating it to the Beltline, maybe I would just start my own construction company and build it myself!

[shivtim]

^I think your estimates are in the general order of magnitude of correctness, but there are a LOT of caveats. You missed the Northside trail, which was actually the first section of the Beltline to open. It gets complicated when PATH is involved - did the Beltline or PATH pay for the Northside trail? And different sections of Beltline likely cost very different amounts to construct. Some sections require installation of bridges, tree removal, property acquisition, etc, while some sections are already flat and clear. Then there are complicated arrangements like what happened with the paved Georgia Power segment north of Piedmont Park. They also spend some of their budget on affordable housing.

[enthurzan]

Reminds me of this meme I saw on Twitter LOL.
https://imgur.com/lXU8dk0

Yea, I think I did forge the NE trail. I was just going off that map on the Beltline's website. Also, I don't know how much bridges cost for the Beltline since everything seems to be more expensive when they do it, but going off estimates from Google, basic concrete beam bridges cost about $1 million per, which if a single section of trail is $20 million per mile, isn't a whole lot. There are three bridges in between the current paved trail terminus at 10th and Monroe, and the GA Power Paved trail - all ove Clear Creek. The status of the current bridges there is not optimal. I believe they are wooden and quite old. When they put the streetcar through there, they will need a total of 6 bridges, two at each crossing for pedestrians and the streetcar.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by enthurzan

Reminds me of this meme I saw on Twitter LOL.
https://imgur.com/lXU8dk0

Yea, I think I did forge the NE trail. I was just going off that map on the Beltline's website. Also, I don't know how much bridges cost for the Beltline since everything seems to be more expensive when they do it, but going off estimates from Google, basic concrete beam bridges cost about $1 million per, which if a single section of trail is $20 million per mile, isn't a whole lot. There are three bridges in between the current paved trail terminus at 10th and Monroe, and the GA Power Paved trail - all ove Clear Creek. The status of the current bridges there is not optimal. I believe they are wooden and quite old. When they put the streetcar through there, they will need a total of 6 bridges, two at each crossing for pedestrians and the streetcar.

The right of way is also not wide enough for more than a single rail line or walking path— and part of the rail line through there has bedrock on both sides. Maybe they are trying to get the Piedmont Park conservancy to design that section since it'll basically be part of the park.

[enthurzan]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

The right of way is also not wide enough for more than a single rail line or walking path— and part of the rail line through there has bedrock on both sides. Maybe they are trying to get the Piedmont Park conservancy to design that section since it'll basically be part of the park.

Yea, they will probably have to blast the bedrock there. That being said it's 2021, and they should have designs and plans on how to do this by now. I have been walking that corridor for nine years and nothing has changed. They should be aiming to connect Lindbergh all the way down the Eastside to the Westside Trail, leaving the hardest section, the Northwest portion, which runs along active CSX railroad lines, for the last part of construction.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by enthurzan

Yea, they will probably have to blast the bedrock there. That being said it's 2021, and they should have designs and plans on how to do this by now. I have been walking that corridor for nine years and nothing has changed. They should be aiming to connect Lindbergh all the way down the Eastside to the Westside Trail, leaving the hardest section, the Northwest portion, which runs along active CSX railroad lines, for the last part of construction.

Ehhh... I am really hoping they don't blast through there. It's one of my favorite parts of the whole Beltline. Surely they can find a way to route the light rail around that section. Maybe using the GA Power right of way to the west up the hill, but bring it back into the trail before reaching the creek. Or putting the trail up there and leaving the existing RoW for the light rail, double tracking through that portion. They are probably having the same debate on their end.

[shivtim]

I'm not sure if this is new content, but I hadn't seen it laid out like this before: Beltline list of active design and construction projects.
Lots going on.

[trainiac]

Originally Posted by shivtim

I'm not sure if this is new content, but I hadn't seen it laid out like this before: Beltline list of active design and construction projects.
Lots going on.

Nice! I'd never seen it listed like that either. Second from the last link "Westside Trail Segment 3 is mainline BeltLine trail" is going like gangbusters right now. They carved 20 or so feet off the western side of the road and are already laying curbing and such. It's already made that stretch of Marietta Blvd better by slowing everything down and people are using the west side as a sidewalk that had never existed. Love it!

[Martinman]

Ever wonder about the process that goes into building out the Atlanta BeltLine multi-use trail? What may appear as a simple paved path on the surface is actually much more complex. From community engagement to real estate transactions to underground infrastructure, trail construction goes far beyond the concrete. The complexity and quality of Atlanta BeltLine trail projects require time and funding to complete, and we’ve broken it down into this handy infographic.

https://beltline.org/2021/06/09/what-goes-into-building-the-atlanta-beltline-trail/

[trainiac]

Originally Posted by trainiac

Nice! I'd never seen it listed like that either. Second from the last link "Westside Trail Segment 3 is mainline BeltLine trail" is going like gangbusters right now. They carved 20 or so feet off the western side of the road and are already laying curbing and such. It's already made that stretch of Marietta Blvd better by slowing everything down and people are using the west side as a sidewalk that had never existed. Love it!

The curbing was finished last week and they started framing in the actual trail bed. Today they are pouring cement! They've done about 100 feet of trail so far and have another 100 framed in. Pouring north to south starting a little south of Marietta Street. This is happening! It actually looks a little wider than standard Beltline, but hard to tell

[Street Advocate]

[smArTaLlone]

The study presentation https://reporternewspapers.net/wp-conten...de-Study-Group-Northwest-Trail-Study.pdf




Options for crossing I-75

Corridor 1


Corridor 2

[shivtim]

That "proposed trail" on the bottom left corner of the map will be super important to connect Proctor Creek trail with the Beltline system. Right now the only way to connect is along Hollowell, which has a huge hill and six lanes of fast traffic. It will require a bridge over rail tracks that won't be cheap, but the rest of it would be on existing cleared land and connect right in to the big developments at Bankhead.

Fantastic to see all of this Beltline progress. Pretty much the whole circle is in some phase of construction or planning.

Also, I know there's not funding to do this, but it would be great to see BOTH corridor 1 and 2 built in the NW section. Would provide excellent connectivity in the area.

[Martinman]

I saw this yesterday and had the same reaction. The more connectivity, the better and there are key sites that need to be connected to the trail network on both of them.

"Would you prefer corridor 1 or corridor 2?" Yes!