Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[raisethehammer]

too bad they forgot how to develop properties since doing the wonderful job at LIUNA Station.
Now we're patting them on the back because sometime, way back when, they actually knew how to get something done?? wow. congrats LIUNA. You rock.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH--I'm trying to bring some balance to the debate. I'm sorry--but this "wonderful" city vs. "evil" LIUNA is an absolute joke. All I'm trying to say is that the blame for the failure for this is shared...if that comes off as me "defending" LIUNA--so be it. I happen to think LIUNA Station has been an incredibly positive addition to downtown and an anchor for the revitalization of James Street North...for that they deserve credit--just as they deserve derision for the failures of Lister. Remember, there was a business case for CNR--hence it got done. There was a business case for Lister so long as the City agreed to anchor the development--no anchor, no business case, no development. Frankly speaking the portrayal of the City/Council as some sort of blameless saints in this debacle is downright laughable...and again, in order to blame LIUNA for everything we conveniently ignore the fact that a viable business plan/case for development on the site is still lacking.

I too have a vision for Lister--revitalized commercial/retail on the lower Arcade levels--perhaps professional space, a boutique hotel or residential above--but I don't have the money to pull it off myself--and if I did, I'm not sure I'd be too eager to risk my investment in an area with a derth of retail space and medicore response to condominium development.

To rethink the current scenario--assume a clean slate--take LIUNA and this circus with the city out of the equation all together--assuming all other things being equal--what is Lister's future--blame aside?

[matt602]

I agree, the blame does need to be shared. LIUNA hasn't owned the building for its entire stay in abandonment. The city could have stepped in way back in 1995 when Metrus forced the tenants out and closed it up. You know, back when it was in great condition. Nobody, including the residents of this city, seemed to care back then.

I admit though that sometimes I wonder why exactly LIUNA purchased the building in the first place. I wonder what exactly they had planned for it, if anything, at the time.

Lister's future I couldn't even guess at. Obviously I share the same vision of retail/commercial mixed use, but I couldn't say who will be responsible for it. I do think *something* will happen, instead of demolition. Most likely a power outside of this city, whether it be private or provincial/federal government, will have a hand in it.

[the dude]

there seems to be the suggestion that the lister building could only be redeveloped with public monies. we don't know that to be true. what we do know is it's the only way LIUNA is willing to do it. if LIUNA hadn't gotten their greedy hands on the building then perhaps we'd be looking at a renovated building today. instead they've sat on it for a decade, left it open to the elements and prayed for it to collapse. also, let's leave the CN building outta the debate. it's got nothing to do with the lister building.

what's the lister's future? as long as liuna owns it - rot.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I know Metrus originally hoped they could assemble enough land for a large development--the whole district was hot for a little while--same with the block immediately south of it--Royal Bank was mulling over building something to rival Commerce Place and everyone was hot-to-trot over land assembly. As for LIUNA--I think they hoped one of a handful of things would happen...obviously they saw an opportunity to come in when real estate values were low and hoped something would gel commercially. The Federal Government was quite open about wanting to replace the Main Street Federal Building--and Lister was in the running...after they built on Bay, Ms. Copps opened her pie-hole again musing about bringing more Federal jobs downtown--again Lister was mulled and passed over...then of course this city proposal came along...and there were others along the way, including the idea of relocating the market to the site and ceding the exisiting market space to the HPL...you'll remember Yale's howls of protest over that. I personally hope LIUNA starts from scratch and can come up with something commercially viable. I sincerely hope government ownership/investment doesn't appear on the radar--that's the last thing anyone needs.

In response to the_dude--leave the CN building out? The only reason I can possibly think for that would be because it runs counter to the arguments you're trying to make and the agenda you're trying to push...it's an altered reality. For the sake of everyone could you also refrain from suggesting LIUNA hoped the building would collapse...that is nothing short of ludicrous--considering they are in the construction trade I'm pretty sure they know steel frame buildings tend not to "collapse" the way older masonary buildings do--you know that and I know that, so please, don't try to turn a myth into reality by repeating it.

[hmagazine]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I happen to think LIUNA Station has been an incredibly positive addition to downtown and an anchor for the revitalization of James Street North...

WRONG.

James North is being revitalized off the backs of hard working individuals who are putting up their own money to make something happen there.

"No guts, no glory: This troubled city needs its artists' vision"
http://thespec.com/Opinions/article/394250

Come down and check it out - you'd be pleasantly surprised!

[fastcarsfreedom]

I like the capitalization hmagazine--it allows you're very positive and affective message to come across with bitterness and negativity. I don't recall saying that James Street WASNT revitalized by hard working individuals--so please don't attribute statements to me that I didn't make.

[hmagazine]

First thing is first Fastcars, I love this city.

I can also be bitter and negative when those who claim they love this city are letting it fall apart.

So excuse my CAPS.

An interesting post by Matt Jelly:

THE FIGHT FOR LISTER IS STILL ON. by Matt Jelly

As someone who has worked for four years to see the Lister Block restored, I really don’t understand the logic behind many of the comments I’ve read over the years on the issue. Some of the least constructive comments are from some people too intellectually lazy to fully understand the issue, making calls to “tear the eyesore down” and so on. Reading comments like these, it’s clear to me that LIUNA have been successful in managing public opinion, convincing every armchair quarterback in the city that the building isn’t structurally sound or historically significant.

LIUNA bought the Lister in 1999 and did nothing significant to protect it for the better part of a decade. This included keeping nearly a third of the windows open to the elements, failing to secure the building from trespassers and arsonists, and a number of other property standards violations which many people have tried to bring to City Council’s attention to no avail, myself included. LIUNA didn’t start to do anything to protect the building until the week after the 2006 election, when they finally decided to board up the windows, perhaps fearing that a council with new direction would actually enforce property standards by-laws. As if.

People seem to forget or ignore the fact that the building was designated as a heritage property in 1995, well before LIUNA bought it. People also seem to think heritage designations are put in place to keep buildings vacant and strangle business. There’s no doubt that a heritage designation puts restrictions on what can be done to a designated property, but I think it’s such a mistake to think that these designations are meant to tie the hands of building owners. So many people blame the designation of the building for the state that it’s in, and not the owners of the building for not complying with property standards by-laws. If LIUNA didn’t want its hands tied by a heritage designation, they shouldn’t have bought a designated heritage building, end of story.

The psychology that many people ascribe to when approaching this debate is poisonous. We’re in the middle of an upswing after 30 years of decline, and still there are people out there who believe the best thing we can do to send in the bulldozers and build anew. This is the most backwards and unrealistic approach we could ever take in turning the downtown around. We tried it in the 60’s and 70’s with Jackson Square, and it didn’t work. Anyone who thinks we should take that route again is just too incompetent to think of anything better.

People who ascribe to this ideology will never rejuvenate this downtown; especially since most of them I would assume live, work and play somewhere else. This downtown is and will be reinvigorated by people who have proven they have the vision, creativity and passion required to take what we have and make it work. Hopefully by the time we see downtown reaching it’s full potential, we’ll at least be able to still recognize ourselves in that progress. Those people who seem to think we need to throw out the past in order to embrace the future just don’t belong in this city.

LIUNA itself has been indisputably the biggest obstacle in trying to find a solution that works for the Lister Block and the City. While they may be private owners, they bought a building of municipal and provincial heritage significance, and they have a moral obligation to restore it. Especially after they’ve held the Lister hostage for the better part of a decade, letting it decay to the point that it’s a public liability, both to the businesses that surround it and to our political process. And to those who think they should just tear it down and build a new building, there are plenty of available lots in the lower city where LIUNA could build a new building. Some seem to think a vacant lot where the Lister stands would change everything over night. It won't.

Joe Mancinelli can continue to cry all he wants in the media about how hard it is to do business as a developer in this city, how hard it is to strong-arm our City Council into handing him a sweetheart deal for 25 Million dollars. He can complain all he wants about how hard it is to get away with demolishing a building by neglect, how hard it is to contravene property standards bylaws. He can complain all he wants about the pesky activists trying to prevent him from tearing down a building that is still a prime candidate for restoration.

I just don’t buy any of it, and as long as the building stays structurally sound and has the potential to be restored for a comparable cost of building anew, I’ll fight Joe Mancinelli and his wrecking ball on the merits, regardless of how many mountain residents try to question my commitment to the downtown which I’ve always called home. I hope you will too.

This fight is still very much on.

[markbarbera]

The assertion that LIUNA station was the anchor to James North's revitalization betrays a utter lack of understanding of the street's recent renaissance. Hamilton's arts commuinity is the driving force to the street's revitalization. The artists' decision to locate on James North was certainly not driven by the presence of a banquet hall, and the demographics of the banquet hall's patronage and the demographics of the arts community's patrons are mutually exclusive.

The redevelopment of Lister should be dove-tailed with the culture-driven renaissance of James North, as it should have been all along. The concept of redeveloping Lister as office space was completely contrary to market demand ever since it was first proposed by LIUNA back in 2006, even by their own admission. The most logical redevelopment use was identified by city planners way back in 1995, as a multi-use residential/commercial space. Sadly, the consultant work was ignored by all parties. Perhaps it will now get a second look.

[raisethehammer]

matt Jelly rocks!

As for LIUNA Station. I fully appreciate that great old building being restored, but to say that a few hundred cars showing up several times a week for a banquet and then heading back home afterwards has anything to do with the revitalization of James North is not accurate.
Having said that, perhaps the physical structure being restored and beautified with the wonderful garden/fountain area out front has had a positive visual impact on the street, instead of an empty building with a huge empty concrete canyon out front as it used to be.
So, yea, the building itself is part of the James North revival, but due to the mega-parking lots I don't think the clientele ever wander down the street (at least I've never seen people in tuxedo's and fancy dresses strolling James North - perhaps they come back on their own time, but who knows).

Jelly....send your piece to the Spec. It's awesome and needs to be read by the public.

[fastcarsfreedom]

hmagazine--I can appreciate your love for the city--I merely draw your attention to the fact that your zeal doesn't give you the right to twist or alter my statement for the benefit of your own argument.

Secondly, LIUNA Station worked, it's a beautiful building, a faithful restoration and it has had a positive impact on it's environs--vis-a-vis another abandoned building bedeviled by vermon, vagrants and 'urban explorers' ...accept the fact that LIUNA was responsible for it--I can understand the bitterness over Lister--but the Station is a beautiful addition to downtown, whether or not your able to get past the problems with Lister...or perhaps you just disagree so strongly with me personally that you can't get past it...either way...it's impact is tangible...would you suggest the banquet goers would be better off at Carmen's?

Interesting article by Jelly--it has it's good points...the City should be pleased that he has followed the lead of this Forum and given it full absolution in this mess...I'm really amazed after all the bitter things I've read here over the years about the City, EcDev, Council--that they are so completely and utterly off-the-hook for this failure. Regardless, I take exception to Jelly's assertion that LIUNA has a "moral" obligation to restore the building--that suggestion is absurd--I think LIUNA "ought" to restore the building, but they are hardly bound by morality when it comes to restoration. Moreover, though Heritage Designations definitely are not intended to bind the hands of property owners--that is the end result--intended or not.

[raisethehammer]

fastcars...just because the city screws up most of what it touches doesn't mean we refuse to give credit when due.
How many times is the city supposed to vote for another batch of changes offered by LIUNA only to have LIUNA change their mind the second the vote is complete?
The 'moral' obligation also has to do with upholding the law.
They bought a designated building and considering they are a TRADE and CONSTRUCTION UNION, I'm going to assume that they know the laws and rules pertaining to owning a heritage building.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I understand the frustration--and I understand the anger at LIUNA. However, I refuse to hold them soley responsible for the failure of this project to get off the ground--there were simply too many fingers in this cesspool for me drop all the blame at their door. It is important to remember that demands changed on both sides--LIUNA's original concept for the site was once acceptable--then suddenly unacceptable--saving the facade was enough, then saving the facade wasn't enough. Indeed, the City can spin the story to make themselves look blameless in this--they have plenty of material to work with. Nonetheless, one could just as effectively take the opposite approach and spin this so that LIUNA looks like the ever-flexible entity which agreed to changes demanded by the city...and the remarkably meddling province...only to have the thing fall apart in the end--I am by no means a scholar on this topic--but I did follow this saga as it progressed and it seems to me minds were getting changed everywhere--everyday. Therefore, I hold the City and LIUNA to account, not to mention Metrus and McGuinty et al on their white horses riding into town on their vote buying spree...a lot of good that did in the end.

I do require clarification on something--what designation did Lister receive in 1995? It seems to me a demo permit was approved--so what sort of a designation allows for that?

I absolutely understand the fervor for saving Lister--particular for the uniqueness of it's Arcade and it's terra-cotta embelishments. Nonetheless--I was young, but aware, for the destruction of two significant downtown buildings of comparable (actually larger) size in the late 80s/early 90s...namely the Bank of Hamilton (CIBC) at King & James and the original section of the Arcade Department Store (T. Eaton Co.) at James & York...these two were beautiful and irreplacable buildings--yet I remember nary a tear being shed over either...while Commerce Place at least brought/retained warm bodies working downtown...the City Centre (one of the only buildings I will truly call hideously ugly) is an utter disappointment from a street presence perspective compared to Eaton's...just an observation as we debate the fate of the Lister.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

RTH--I'm trying to bring some balance to the debate. I'm sorry--but this "wonderful" city vs. "evil" LIUNA is an absolute joke. All I'm trying to say is that the blame for the failure for this is shared...if that comes off as me "defending" LIUNA--so be it. I happen to think LIUNA Station has been an incredibly positive addition to downtown and an anchor for the revitalization of James Street North...for that they deserve credit--just as they deserve derision for the failures of Lister. Remember, there was a business case for CNR--hence it got done. There was a business case for Lister so long as the City agreed to anchor the development--no anchor, no business case, no development. Frankly speaking the portrayal of the City/Council as some sort of blameless saints in this debacle is downright laughable...and again, in order to blame LIUNA for everything we conveniently ignore the fact that a viable business plan/case for development on the site is still lacking.

I too have a vision for Lister--revitalized commercial/retail on the lower Arcade levels--perhaps professional space, a boutique hotel or residential above--but I don't have the money to pull it off myself--and if I did, I'm not sure I'd be too eager to risk my investment in an area with a derth of retail space and medicore response to condominium development.

To rethink the current scenario--assume a clean slate--take LIUNA and this circus with the city out of the equation all together--assuming all other things being equal--what is Lister's future--blame aside?

Thanks for that brilliant post. A breath of fresh air around here.

I too have some great ideas myself on what I would do with this property but just like you I too don't own it and even if I did my hands would be tied up by all folks in this town that like to designate buildings in our town as heritage sites but have no money to do anything with them.

[raisethehammer]

let's all remember that their original plan wasn't to "save the facade".
They presented it like it was, but upon deeper investigation into the actual plans, they said they would 'try to save heritage elements that weren't too damaged and reuse them in construction'.
It was going to be demolished and rebuilt as a cartoon replica. And again, that is not allowed with a heritage builidng. You guys keep saying "I'd love to do this or that, but don't own the property". That's a mute arguement. You don't own a heritage-designated building. If you did, and were trying to break the law, we'd be on here talking about you.
Again, LIUNA knows all this stuff, especially considering their line of work.
To let them off the hook or make them feel like they are being hard-done by is crazy. They are trying to break the law and ruin a piece of Hamilton.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I do require clarification on something--what designation did Lister receive in 1995? It seems to me a demo permit was approved--so what sort of a designation allows for that?

Designation for Lister under part IV of the Ontario Heritage Act was originally proposed by the city in July 1995, against the wishes of its current owner, Metrus. it wasn't designated until May 1996, at which point Metrus had withdrawn its objections to the designation. Three years later LIUNA bought the heritage building.

Section 34 of the Act allows for a property owner to apply for demolition, which would require approval by the municipality that granted the original designation. In 2006 the now notorius Lister proposal went before city council. Under the deal with LIUNA, brokered by then mayor Larry DiIanni, the city approved demolition under section 34 of the Ontario Heritage Act, against the advice of the city's heritage committee. Councillor McHattie appealed to the Ontario Ministry of Culture for provincial intervention, and the Ontario Heritage Trust studied Lister and issued a recommendation to the minister, which was kept secret until its court-ordered its release no later than June 13, 2008. In it, the trust recommended that the minister protect the building under Part IV of the act.

[realcity]

Originally Posted by itsbryan

Could someone enlighten me as to the steps needed for applying for a demolition permit?

I understand that LIUNA applied for one, it was approved, but never granted. Now, given the ensuing battle between LIUNA and the City.. if LIUNA were to reapply for a permit (without the province establishing Lister as a heritage building).. would the City be obligied to issue it?.. Do they need a legitimate reason to deny them? I know there's a good chance that LIUNA would begin demolition regardless, but I'm curious as to just how threatened Lister is right now.

Tim McCabe would probably hand deliver the demo permit for them

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

I hope Matt Jelly is not some sort of spokesperson for the Lister Block. Because according to him, and what he posted over at the hallmarks blog, if you don't live in the downtown core then your opinion on what to do with our downtown and the Lister Block building doesn't matter as much compared to someone's who lives and works in the core.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Thanks for the points of clarification...much appreciated. Basically the City approved demolition despite the designation...that's what I was wondering about, I didn't recall the exact timeline...or how that demolition permit came about.

I do recall the demolition/replication debate. Essentially the City made a deal with LIUNA that was signed/sealed/delivered for better or worse, until third party intervention at which time the metrics and economics of the project were completely changed--so clearly it was not LIUNA that was solely responsible for "changing it's mind" as has been suggested by some on City Council...there was mind-changing and "intervention" going on on both sides. I am certainly not letting LIUNA "off the hook"--I'm merely pointing out that they had an agreement in place--an agreement which was later changed due to outside intervention--it's all part of the big picture.

And no, for the record, if I had all the money in the world I wouldn't be crazy enough to buy a designated building--particularly not one which needs considerable remediation.

[markbarbera]

I wouldn't really describe any period where there was a 'done deal' on Lister. The deal presented to council in May of 2006 was significantly different from the original LIUNA proposal, in that the commitment to preserve the facade was dropped in favour of a replication. The decision was controversial, it ignored the advice of the city's heritage committee, and the overall vote was split. And, while the vote was in favour of revoking designation to allow demolition, the council also voted to delay demolition permits being issued for a month to see if a compromise proposal could be reached. It is during this period that the Heritage Ministry intervened upon the appeal by McHattie, and the thirty day period became that protracted negotiation of over two years.

There is no doubt that the economic metrics changed due to provincial intervention, which is why they brought a $7 million blank cheque to the equation. That was supposed to cover the additional costs of restoration of a property the city would lease, but LIUNA kept coming back with higher cost estimates, then the lease became an offer to purchase as a result, and the additional cost to the city would now exceed the $7 million cheque. Consequently, the city wanted a guarantee that the second phase development would be sufficient enough to generate property tax revenue to cover the additional cost to the city. Sadly, LIUNA refused to sign onto the guarantee and the deal now appears to be dead.

I have maintained from the onset of the debacle that LIUNA had bit off more than it could chew with this project. It is much more complex than any other development they have done in the past, and they obviously never had a full grasp on what would be involved in its redevelopment, seing as their cost estimates have been all over the board. They really should cut their losses and sell off the property to a party better suited for a redevelopment of this size.

As far as the city is concerned, it was poor judgement on their part to ever get involved in any deal with LIUNA on Lister. Unfortunately politics won over common sense back in 2006.