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  #1261  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 2:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
Except that I never said anything about the CTC. I said the Senators, i.e. the game day product and other things like advertising, web sites, twitter, etc. What happens at other events at the CTC (concerts, etc.) is something I haven't paid much attention to.

Concessions at the CTC are operated by a wide variety of third-party enterprises. Pizza Pizza, Tim Hortons, Molson Coors, Aramark, Farm Boy, etc.

Anyway, sounds like a typical case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Bilingual "to a decent degree" sounds like "not good enough" ... like ordering 7-Up on Air Canada not good enough.
Again, it's not a big issue to me but it's cherry-picking to say that concessions, etc. during games at CTC are not ''the Sens''. They own the arena and hire those companies either directly or indirectly. It's still all part of the ''Sens experience".
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  #1262  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post

Concessions at the CTC are operated by a wide variety of third-party enterprises. Pizza Pizza, Tim Hortons, Molson Coors, Aramark, Farm Boy, etc.
Somewhat OT, (but I think this topic has run it's course, anyway) i was under the impression that all the concessions were operated by Aramark, no matter which name is on the banner, anyone know for sure?
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  #1263  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Again, it's not a big issue to me but it's cherry-picking to say that concessions, etc. during games at CTC are not ''the Sens''. They own the arena and hire those companies either directly or indirectly. It's still all part of the ''Sens experience".
It's not cherry-picking; it's accuracy.

The Ottawa Senators Hockey Club is a business that is distinct and separate from the Canadian Tire Centre, which is a commercial, retail, and entertainment property owned by Capital Sports Properties Inc. The fact that they are both subsidiaries of the business known as Senators Sports and Entertainment, which itself is owned by Eugene Melnyk, cannot be ignored in such a discussion. The Hockey Club is a tenant of the building.

The point I made was that everything the Senators Hockey Club does as a business is bilingual. I cannot speak for the CTC (which is responsible for contracting and staffing concessions, ticket takers, ushers, etc.), so we'll assume your feedback is accurate.

To me it's not surprising at all that the CTC staff is marginally (or hardly) bilingual; Ottawa is mostly anglo and being out in Kanata makes the CTC's staffing pool even moreso anglo. That they aren't bilingual is an indication that there isn't high enough demand to impose such a staffing requirement.

Your examples of the Robert Guertin and Montreal aren't really comparable either. The fact is that Francophones (youth, especially) must learn English if they wish to broaden their prospects, because failing to do so means they are limited to opportunities in that language. While the same is true for Anglophones, obviously just knowing English isn't nearly as limiting as just knowing French.

Anyway, those are my 2 cents in clarifying the original point, which is that the Senators offer a bilingual product.

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Originally Posted by McC
Somewhat OT, (but I think this topic has run it's course, anyway) i was under the impression that all the concessions were operated by Aramark, no matter which name is on the banner, anyone know for sure?
You might be right, but I for one can't say for sure.
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  #1264  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
That they aren't bilingual is an indication that there isn't high enough demand to impose such a staffing requirement
Ahem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

I think you'll find that you're assuming your own conclusion in that sentence. Acajack's whole point is that there might be demand if they actually put an effort in.

Also, and not for nothing, but it sounds like Acajack is francophone and he's telling you that there's a deficiency in the level of French service which might be partly responsible for decreased market share of the Sens among Francophones. It's possible that Acajack might have a better (first hand) understanding of this subject so it might be worth us considering what he has to say on this subject. Not saying he's obviously right, but on the face of it, what he's saying doesn't exactly seem wildly unreasonable to me.
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  #1265  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
It's not cherry-picking; it's accuracy.

The Ottawa Senators Hockey Club is a business that is distinct and separate from the Canadian Tire Centre, which is a commercial, retail, and entertainment property owned by Capital Sports Properties Inc. The fact that they are both subsidiaries of the business known as Senators Sports and Entertainment, which itself is owned by Eugene Melnyk, cannot be ignored in such a discussion. The Hockey Club is a tenant of the building.

The point I made was that everything the Senators Hockey Club does as a business is bilingual. I cannot speak for the CTC (which is responsible for contracting and staffing concessions, ticket takers, ushers, etc.), so we'll assume your feedback is accurate.

To me it's not surprising at all that the CTC staff is marginally (or hardly) bilingual; Ottawa is mostly anglo and being out in Kanata makes the CTC's staffing pool even moreso anglo. That they aren't bilingual is an indication that there isn't high enough demand to impose such a staffing requirement.

Your examples of the Robert Guertin and Montreal aren't really comparable either. The fact is that Francophones (youth, especially) must learn English if they wish to broaden their prospects, because failing to do so means they are limited to opportunities in that language. While the same is true for Anglophones, obviously just knowing English isn't nearly as limiting as just knowing French.

Anyway, those are my 2 cents in clarifying the original point, which is that the Senators offer a bilingual product.

.
In light of what's been discussed (and regardless of the corporate org chart), I don't think that's entirely true.

I don't really think that most people who go to a hockey game consult Eugene Melnyk's corporate org chart to see who's responsible for what. If the traffic control sucks after the game, that's a knock on the Sens too even if it's the OPP or Ottawa Police who are responsible.

Anyway, as I said I don't really care personally and can get my beer and hot dog in English, German, Spanish or Italian if I have to.

But to say that the "Senators' fan experience" (which to the fan begins from the moment you arrive on the site at CTC) is a bilingual one is a fallacy. There is some level of accommodation for francophones as you point out but to describe it conclusively as "bilingual" as you are doing is a bit of a stretch.

Now, whether any of this is related to anemic fan support from the Gatineau side of the river I am not sure. It may be a factor but it's certainly not the only one and may not even be the main one.
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  #1266  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 5:38 PM
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There seems to be some misunderstanding on the sequence of this discussion. A point was originally made that the Senators are Kanata's team/an Anglos team. I made the point that the Senators TEAM offers a bilingual product in that they make efforts to cater to the Francophone population. They do make efforts, and that's not disputable. The TEAM is open to being anyone's team, Anglo, Franco, or otherwise.

The discussion then made reference to other events at the CTC (concerts, Disney on ice, whatever), even Franco-centric events, and I challenged the notion that this still the Senators. It's not the Senators anymore, it's the building.

In regards to the French language service and whether or not it's "good enough", I'll just quote myself from earlier:

Quote:
sounds like a typical case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
My only suggestion would be for Francos, who are somehow impeded or discouraged from attending due to a lack of language service, to contact the team and/or the CTC to provide feedback on where they believe services are deficient. If this is done in sufficient numbers, improvements will be made. It's that simple.
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  #1267  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
There seems to be some misunderstanding on the sequence of this discussion. A point was originally made that the Senators are Kanata's team/an Anglos team. I made the point that the Senators TEAM offers a bilingual product in that they make efforts to cater to the Francophone population. They do make efforts, and that's not disputable. The TEAM is open to being anyone's team, Anglo, Franco, or otherwise.

The discussion then made reference to other events at the CTC (concerts, Disney on ice, whatever), even Franco-centric events, and I challenged the notion that this still the Senators. It's not the Senators anymore, it's the building.

.
Except that the bilingual service shortcomings (assuming this is an issue) are still there during Sens games just as they are during any other event.
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  #1268  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:08 PM
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The LeBreton Flats spin cycle: 'The truth has become a casualty in this process'

Don Butler, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: February 15, 2016 | Last Updated: February 15, 2016 11:09 AM EST


Scant hours before the two teams vying for the right to redevelop LeBreton Flats unveiled their plans at an open house on Jan. 26, both received a surprising message from the National Capital Commission.

The message advised the RendezVous LeBreton Group and its rival, the Devcore Canderel DLS Group, that they would have until midnight Feb. 8 to speak publicly about their proposals — a startling shift from the NCC’s previous edict that the two teams had only until midnight on Jan. 28 to disseminate their plans for the last big piece of vacant land in downtown Ottawa.

“Given the complexity of the proposals,” explained NCC spokesman Nicholas Galletti, “we felt it was important for the public to continue to be able to interact with the proponents and hear from them until the end of public consultations.”

While the time extension was welcome, both groups had focused their communications plan on the 56-hour window originally allotted to present their proposals.

The NCC’s abrupt pirouette forced them to adjust on the fly and ultimately helped fuel an epic hearts-and-minds public relations battle that captivated and occasionally appalled the city.

The full-on scrimmage between the RendezVous and DCDLS groups was an unintended consequence of the NCC’s determination to consult the public on the two proposals in mid-process while ensuring that neither proponent had an unfair advantage.

Selective secrecy was a key piece of the NCC’s strategy. It first imposed a gag order, lifted it during the nearly two weeks of public consultations, then clamped down again. (Tellingly, no one from RendezVous or DCDLS would speak on the record for this story for fear of violating the NCC’s rules.)

One NCC official, speaking on background, said the restrictions are required to maintain the fairness of the process. “If we had let it just become a free-for-all of lobbyists, you’re not going to have a project that’s fair, impartial and based on quality proposals. It’s going to be one based on who can scream the loudest.”

In a high-stakes project such as LeBreton, however, reining in two fiercely competitive teams is easier said than done.

Hours after the NCC’s Dec. 15 announcement that it had received two development proposals for LeBreton, word leaked out that the DCDLS plan included an NHL-calibre arena, just like the rival RendezVous plan.

That was followed by a steady stream of media leaks that ultimately disclosed virtually all the key elements of both plans ahead of their nominal unveiling at the Canadian War Museum.

NCC officials were unhappy, even warning the teams they risked forfeiting their $250,000 security deposits if they didn’t clam up. While that had some deterrent effect, it only slowed the leaks at best.

“There were a lot of people in the know,” said one insider. “At some point the bubble burst, and I knew we wouldn’t be able to contain it.”

Once the NCC allowed the two competing groups to go public, the rivalry, spin and messaging only ramped up.

DCDLS fired an early shot, privately complaining to the NCC about the size of the maquette (or model) of the RendezVous plan, which was three or four times the size of the DCDLS model. The NCC brushed the objection aside, saying the larger model violated no rules.

Both teams scrambled to adjust their communications strategies to make full use of the NCC’s unexpected time extension. Sleep became a luxury, with workdays typically starting before 6 a.m. and finishing after midnight. “It was a very exhausting, busy, interesting time,” one team member said.

The two groups cultivated politicians and community leaders, met with bloggers and offered media outlets strategic interviews with team members.

To counter the early perception that the DCDLS bid, backed by Quebec billionaires André Desmarais and Guy Laliberté, was better financed, RendezVous partner John Ruddy talked about his group’s financing strategy, even though that topic was technically off limits.

DCDLS, whose proposed arena lacked an anchor tenant, said it would welcome an arrangement with Eugene Melnyk, a partner in the competing RendezVous group, to have the Ottawa Senators play there. It later upped the ante, revealing that its preference was to buy the team.

That prompted a protest to the NCC by the RendezVous group; under its rules, they pointed out, that sort of public negotiation wasn’t supposed to happen.

RendezVous insiders believe DCDLS’s decision to focus on the Senators was a bit of gamesmanship, designed to reinforce the idea that the RendezVous bid was mostly about an arena and distract attention from the proposal’s other features and core values.

Ironically, when DCDLS team members met the Citizen’s editorial board on Feb. 4, they complained about the media’s focus on its arena, which Canderel vice-president Daniel Peritz said was “basically an addition, but not the backbone of our proposal.”

To address the perception that the RendezVous group had more hometown cred, DCDLS offered interviews with team members Bill Sinclair, a reclusive Ottawa billionaire, and city car dealership moguls Lisa and Arnie Mierins.

RendezVous countered by arranging interviews that highlighted its plans for affordable housing and an innovative and inclusive Activities Centre, open to disabled and able-bodied participants.

Throughout, every media outlet in town was being pushed and spun relentlessly, insiders admit. “The truth,” said one participant, “has become a casualty in this process.”

With the clock winding down, DCDLS tried to orchestrate one final media splash, offering the Citizen an interview with André Desmarais.

Neither he nor fellow Montreal billionaire, Guy Laliberté, had been heard from, in part because they’d made international commitments after the NCC told RendezVous and DCDLS they’d have just two-and-a-half days to make their case. The Desmarais interview would have made an excellent finale to DCDLS’s PR chorus, but the plan fell through.

When the curtain fell at midnight on Feb. 8, both teams were physically spent. There was relief the mad scramble was over, but also regret that there wasn’t more time to present their proposals in a more organized way.

“The proposals were so comprehensive, there’s so much in them, that to have a longer period of time to engage the public would definitely be welcomed,” one team member said. “But we accepted what we were given.”

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...lebreton-flats
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  #1269  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
My only suggestion would be for Francos, who are somehow impeded or discouraged from attending due to a lack of language service, to contact the team and/or the CTC to provide feedback on where they believe services are deficient. If this is done in sufficient numbers, improvements will be made. It's that simple.
I think that's looking at it the wrong way. Francophones (or any other fans) don't owe anything to the Ottawa Senators. Whereas the Ottawa Senators need as many fans as possible to come see their games.

The onus is on the business to anticipate and inform themselves about and cater to their clientele's needs and wants.

(Assuming here of course that lack of French is really a factor in the Sens' attendance figures.)

And I said many times before: I don't really care either way.

Just as I don't care if Ottawa goes below -20C or not during a winter. But if someone emphatically says that it never does, then I might post to counter that statement.
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  #1270  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:37 PM
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LeBreton Flats process unusually open, fairness monitor says

Don Butler, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: February 15, 2016 | Last Updated: February 15, 2016 11:13 AM EST


Complaints about the secrecy of the National Capital Commission’s LeBreton Flats redevelopment process are misguided, says Louise Panneton, the project’s fairness monitor.

In fact, compared to other major developments involving the public sector, the LeBreton process has been unusually open, Panneton tells the Citizen’s Don Butler.

Q: You’re joking, right?
A: Not at all, says Panneton, who has been involved in more than 100 “fairness mandates” for large development or construction projects.

“Based on our experience, we really think the NCC’s gone to great lengths to incorporate public input into the process,” she says. “It’s really not the norm to have that much public exposure during the procurement process.”

Q: What is typically done?
A: In most large procurements, government departments or agencies get public input up front and use it to inform the project’s objectives and evaluation criteria, Panneton says. After that, though “there’s a real lockdown (of information) all the way until the selection of the preferred proponent.”

Q: Are proponents ever allowed to speak publicly during a procurement process?
A: “I have not personally been involved in a procurement where they are permitted to openly talk about the procurement process, their proposals or their competitors’ proposal,” Panneton says.

Q: Anything else?
A: The NCC released its RFP (Request for Proposals) document in December, when it announced that it had received proposals for LeBreton Flats from two private-sector development groups.

Typically the RFP — which lays out a project’s objectives and selection process — is only made public at the end of the process, once the preferred proponent has been chosen, Panneton says.

Q: Why so much secrecy?
A: It’s all about making the process as fair as possible. “The concern from a fairness perspective is to ensure there’s not undue influence and that the evaluators are really considering the information based on the process that was set out (in the RFP).”

Q: Why did the NCC depart from the standard secrecy script?
A: The NCC was “really adamant” that it wanted to exhibit the two proposals publicly and get public feedback, Panneton says. “That was very critical to them. The purpose was to obtain the public input that will feed into the evaluation in a formal way.”

Q: Does that cause you any concern?
A: “We don’t have any concerns from a fairness perspective,” she says. “The NCC, every step of the way, have done all the right things to make sure their process is safeguarded.”

Q: What about the NCC’s decision to extend the period during which the proponents could speak publicly about their plans to Feb. 8?
A: That was “acceptable from a fairness perspective,” Panneton says, because it was done in a “managed, respectful manner. What really is important is that the NCC was clear they wanted to go through a public consultation process and they developed a really good process that was sound and equitable.”

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  #1271  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 6:45 PM
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That's a very "interesting" view on business.

"Hey business, you need to read my mind or else I won't be your client."

Thankfully most people are reasonable in their demands and expectations and provide feedback when they see a need for improvement. Otherwise, every business would always fail, because none of them get it right the first time, nor all the time.

Every good business does its best to anticipate the needs of clients, relying on the customer feedback process to make refinements and improvements as necessary. To see this feedback process as something to engage only if "owing" to the business is in my mind, well, terrible.

But hey, it's your dollar and it's your right to consume it as you choose.
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  #1272  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
That's a very "interesting" view on business.

"Hey business, you need to read my mind or else I won't be your client."

Thankfully most people are reasonable in their demands and expectations and provide feedback when they see a need for improvement. Otherwise, every business would always fail, because none of them get it right the first time, nor all the time.

Every good business does its best to anticipate the needs of clients, relying on the customer feedback process to make refinements and improvements as necessary. To see this feedback process as something to engage only if "owing" to the business is in my mind, well, terrible.

But hey, it's your dollar and it's your right to consume it as you choose.
I don't think you need to be a mind-reader in order to know that you'll get more mileage out of a Québécois francophone target clientele if you serve them in French...
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  #1273  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 10:00 PM
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Anyway, as I said I don't really care personally and can get my beer and hot dog in English, German, Spanish or Italian if I have to.
Are you quadrilingual?
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  #1274  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2016, 10:35 PM
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I don't think you need to be a mind-reader in order to know that you'll get more mileage out of a Québécois francophone target clientele if you serve them in French...
Certainly not, and they do serve them in French, to a "decent degree" by your own admission earlier. However, if most are of an identical mindset to you in that they refuse to provide any feedback regarding the shortcomings (as they see/experience them) because they "don't owe them anything", then clearly there's no mileage available to be gained.

I appreciate the chat as always (sincerely); very informative!
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  #1275  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2016, 12:53 AM
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Are you quadrilingual?
Not really. I'm more like trilingual. But I can order food, ask for directions, etc. in a number of languages.
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  #1276  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2016, 3:14 PM
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Back to the topic at hand...
I think the problem here is that there is the bidders are not required to show any detail (at least to the public). Without business plans, funding models, agreements in principle with partners, letters of credit, etc., all the public has to go on is the models and the renderings. This created a huge incentive for the lobbyists to just go out an make stuff up.
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  #1277  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2016, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think the problem here is that there is the bidders are not required to show any detail (at least to the public). Without business plans, funding models, agreements in principle with partners, letters of credit, etc., all the public has to go on is the models and the renderings. This created a huge incentive for the lobbyists to just go out an make stuff up.
I think it is best to leave these things to the professional and let the public give their thought ONLY on their overall opinions of the proposals. I hate it in this society when people think they should have equal say as experts. I won't ask my neighbor Bob for medical advice, I'd go to a doctor. I don't want an average Joe's economic advice on a large scale development.
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  #1278  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2016, 3:49 PM
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I think it is best to leave these things to the professional and let the public give their thought ONLY on their overall opinions of the proposals. I hate it in this society when people think they should have equal say as experts. I won't ask my neighbor Bob for medical advice, I'd go to a doctor. I don't want an average Joe's economic advice on a large scale development.
Fine, then release the experts' analysis. The public should have enough information to know whether or not the lobbyists (who are not subject matter experts) are lying to them or not.
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  #1279  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2016, 4:37 PM
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Fine, then release the experts' analysis. The public should have enough information to know whether or not the lobbyists (who are not subject matter experts) are lying to them or not.

Agreed. They might be doing this at the next public consultation step.
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Old Posted Feb 22, 2016, 2:31 PM
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