GO/VIA Transit

[craftbeerdad]

Didn't realize there's trains actually running from Hamilton/West Harbour in the morning. Shows you how long it's been since I've taken one with the WFH world. Thanks for the info.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

It's a shame the Hunter St. tunnel wasn't double tracked when it was built. That's one of CP's key issues with allowing more passenger trains downtown.

And there's only so much space for track, in a corridor that's very busy and has limited capacity where the lines meet. I recall reading somewhere that Bayview Junction would need some major work -- I think it mentioned flyover track(s) -- for Hamilton to get more than hourly service all day.

The tunnel used to be double tracked actually, it's since been brought to one because of just how big our trains are now.

I noticed on a few RER maps, Hunter St. would be getting hourly service eventually, whereas WH would get 30 minutes or so. Take some mountain-moving, but hourly is doable with a single track, surely.

[StEC]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

and yea, there are issues with CP. I believe that even though the Hamilton tunnel can accommodate 2 tracks, CP refuses to allow an extra track through it as shifting the CP track over would result in lower clear heights in the tunnel which would prevent them from running double-stack container freight trains.

Obviously they can't make the tunnel higher or wider without a massive expense and inconvenience but wouldn't it be fairly easy to simply lower the tracks (dig down) some to avoid this whole issue?

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by StEC

Obviously they can't make the tunnel higher or wider without a massive expense and inconvenience but wouldn't it be fairly easy to simply lower the tracks some to avoid this whole issue?

One of the issues with modifying the tunnel, so I've read, is that there's risk of disturbing the foundations of the taller buildings that line Hunter.

I don't think the engineering is insurmountable. But the cost involved would be a sticking point, and CP would probably be unwilling to put up any of the scratch to expand the tunnel and also against any disruption in their own use of their track between the west end and the stuff east (e.g., Kinnear Yard and the line into Niagara)

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

The tunnel used to be double tracked actually, it's since been brought to one because of just how big our trains are now.

I noticed on a few RER maps, Hunter St. would be getting hourly service eventually, whereas WH would get 30 minutes or so. Take some mountain-moving, but hourly is doable with a single track, surely.

I think I may have seen that pic! (posting just the URL, as the image isn't coming through here).
http://www.trainweb.org/hamtransithi...tunnel1907.JPG

So I'll modify my original statement, and say it's a shame the tunnel wasn't rectagonal in cross-section instead of arched.

Things have changed so much since the original RER proposal. I think if they can squeeze in an extra train or two to/from the Hunter station during the AM and PM peaks that's the best we can hope for. The regular all-day service will probably all be at West Harbour. If GO has designs on providing connecting bus service from places like Brantford, Caledonia and Smithville then the downtown GO Centre may be the connecting point for those passengers. At least for peak-period commuters.

If the demand is there for it, the HSR could run an express shuttle service between the two, depending on future service on the A-Line (which would be the connector!)

[Dr Awesomesauce]

A-LINE / West Harbour LRT

If money were no object, and if it were decided that the north arm of the A-Line LRT would be built, what would be the best route? Best, I'd say, would be defined as some combination of fastest; most convenient for James North shoppers; and yet not too disruptive for James North merchants ie closures, loss of parking, increased congestion on James, etc. Just off the top of my head...

1. Straight down James North to Pier 7/8.
2. Down Hughson, turning west on Murray, then north on James.
3. Other?

[ScreamingViking]

I guess it would partly depend what route the LRT would take up the escarpment -- Claremont access? Arkledun/Jolley Cut? Dedicated tunnel? (probably not James Mountain Rd. given how narrow it is, and the homes at the lower end). And how it needs to cross over/under the CP rail corridor; a Claremont route takes care of that, then decide if the LRT gets over to James on Hunter or Jackson... on James or John St. you're probably looking at digging down for enough clearance under the tracks.

But I think it should be on James. Direct connection to the B-Line, most of the activity is on James St., and it's fairly central to development occurring or planned both west and east. Put stops at or near Charlton, Hunter, King, Cannon, West Harbour GO, Burlington, and terminate somewhere close to Pier 8. If money was really no object, tunnel it through downtown.

I don't understand the reasoning for having the current express bus routed onto John between St. Joes and Barton (opens PDF) when it travels northbound.

[Innsertnamehere]

I imagine any eventual A-line LRT will have a dedicated tunnel.

I genuinely don't think that will be on anyones radar for at least another generation though.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Oooh I don't hate that idea.

The A-Line would descend into a tunnel at or after Mohawk with stops at St Joe's, the Go Centre, Jackson Sq, West Harbour, Pier 8. That would be sexy as heck.

And perhaps they could bore another tunnel running parallel to it for cyclists and pedestrians with a moving walkway. Two birds...

Perhaps Hamilton City Council could invest in some sort of money printing device...

[King&James]

If we are dreaming, I would come from the West Harbour station up John Street stops at King , Hamilton Go, St Joe's Hospital, then the fun starts somehow up the escarpment to Fennell and West 5th (Mohawk College), before snaking over to Upper James for stops along the concessions before terminating at the airport.

[TheRitsman]

I believe we've had this discussion before and it was decided that a below ground LRT into the mountain would make it one of the deepest LRTs in North America, and it would also take forever to get back to above ground.

[ScreamingViking]

Just posted a few key lines here. Not much of this is new though.

There was a letter to the editor today complaining about parking at West Harbour... from someone who lives in Glanbrook, posted in the Ancaster News.
https://www.hamiltonnews.com/opinion...muter-parking/ (note that there's a paywall)


Good to GO? Five questions and answers about new, all-day GO Train service to Hamilton

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...y-service.html

By Matthew Van Dongen
The Hamilton Spectator
Thu., July 29, 2021

All-day, hourly GO Train service is finally arriving at West Harbour station Aug. 7 — seven years behind schedule.

That means 18 Toronto-bound departures per day during the week between 5:13 a.m. and 10:13 p.m. Hourly weekend departures start at 8:13 a.m. and end at 11:13 p.m.

Plenty of residents and commuters are celebrating the news — but they also have questions.

Here’s what we know and don’t know about the latest GO Train plans for Hamilton.


How many people will take the train from West Harbour?
There’s no official estimate from GO Transit operator Metrolinx

...

But ridership ought to be higher than the average 81 boardings recorded daily at West Harbour back in February 2020

...

Aldershot GO station in Burlington averaged around 2,600 daily boardings in February 2020. Metrolinx says 62 per cent of PRESTO card users who drove to the Aldershot station to park and ride in 2019 came from Hamilton.


Is there room to park at West Harbour?
There are 300 parking spaces at the James Street North station.

That’s not nearly as many as the 1,600-plus parking spots at Aldershot GO — but a lot more than zero, which is what is available for free at the downtown Hamilton GO Centre on Hunter Street.


Will the city improve transit access to the station?
The short answer is ‘yes’ — but the city has not yet specified exactly how. A HSR spokesperson said an update on pending service improvements is expected “in the coming weeks.”

...


What happens if I want to use the downtown Hamilton GO Centre instead?
Metrolinx is reinstating four train departures from the Hunter Street station to Toronto each weekday as of Aug. 7 after gearing down service during the pandemic.

...

Metrolinx said the new West Harbour train service is not meant to replace bus service from Hunter Street, so expect to see more express buses brought back into service — eventually.

...

In 2018, a GO expansion business case from Metrolinx suggested bringing hourly service first to West Harbour rather than Hamilton GO Centre as once planned. A “blend” of new service is expected over time at both train stations, suggested Metrolinx head Phil Verster at the time.

But the business case service map suggests only “peak period” train service at Hunter Street through 2024.


What about that promised east-end station?
Once upon a time, a Confederation GO train station was supposed to open in 2019

...

There is now GO bus service (Route 12) to that eventual station location — but a planned new, “self-serve” GO station is still in procurement and there is no estimated time of arrival for train service.

Metrolinx head Phil Verster said negotiations continue with rail corridor owner CN on how to allow commuter and freight trains to share access to the busy tracks through Hamilton.

Ultimately, a new track must be built from West Harbour to Confederation to ensure timely commuter rail service to the east end and beyond into Niagara. Four bridges that cross the tracks between Birch Avenue and the Red Hill Valley Parkway also need work.

And, the city and Metrolinx are studying level crossings — the intersections where cars bump over the tracks — to determine if any should be blocked, improved or turned into overpasses.


full story here

[Innsertnamehere]

It's a shame Confederation GO continues to sit in limbo. Would be a great asset to me.

[TheRitsman]

I suspect Confederation Go isn't a priority until West Harbour fills up and Aldershot and Burlington are filled. If West Harbour has 81 boardings, then Confederation would be even fewer.

I also do not think West Harbour's parking lot will be filled anytime soon, if the Burlington ratio of parking spot to ridership is followed, then West Harbour would have 400-500 boardings per day before the parking is filled. I suspect West Harbour will slowly increase. But I wouldn't bet on it being more than 100-200 per day for at least a couple years. I'd love to see people coming into Hamilton in the morning too though, which would up the station numbers while not increasing parking requirements. Being Hamilton, if better transit exists, West Harbour could possibly hit 700 boardings before parking being filled.

[ScreamingViking]

Despite the track sharing and infrastructure issues noted in that story re: extending hourly service to Centennial Parkway, I think using auto to access one of the Burlington stations still makes sense for many people in east Hamilton and Stoney Creek. Despite any potential tie-ups on the Skyway, the trip time differential makes auto use very attractive for many.

Or perhaps people would use Confederation GO some of the time. E.g., during bad weather, extreme congestion and lane closures on the QEW they know about in advance, etc.

Some would definitely appreciate the convenience of driving or busing it to a closer station, and the ability to use that train travel time as they wish rather than white-knuckling it on the freeway during rush hour to save however many minutes the difference would be and playing parking-space roulette at Burlington if it's late enough in the morning, or continuing the hairy drive a few kms to Appleby. Good HSR service to Confederation would help (and I'm not forgetting the GO bus service... was the 12 used by many from Confederation when things were "normal"? I don't recall when it was introduced)

These are probably all issues that factor into Metrolinx's planning. As well as the argument that if you provide the service, people will use it.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

My concern, with our current fleet of diesel-powered engines, is that this line will be so sluggish as to be a supremely inferior option for commuters.

Grimsby > Confederation > West Harbour > Aldershot > Burlington...yikes.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

My concern, with our current fleet of diesel-powered engines, is that this line will be so sluggish as to be a supremely inferior option for commuters.

Grimsby > Confederation > West Harbour > Aldershot > Burlington...yikes.

I'd worry more about "freight traffic" tying up the line. Which is a much bigger issue for the Hamilton stations, even at West Harbour with the new track that was added from Bayview Junction. Mlx owns the tracks between Burlington Station and Union and that issue really tailed off compared to what it was 20 years ago, though there were still times we'd stop to wait for the freight trains that continued to use the corridor to get to/from the Ford plant or yard in Oakville.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I'd worry more about "freight traffic" tying up the line. Which is a much bigger issue for the Hamilton stations, even at West Harbour with the new track that was added from Bayview Junction. Mlx owns the tracks between Burlington Station and Union and that issue really tailed off compared to what it was 20 years ago, though there were still times we'd stop to wait for the freight trains that continued to use the corridor to get to/from the Ford plant or yard in Oakville.

Yeah, true enough.

I love trains and trams and all that. But there's this little voice in the back of my mind that reminds me that trains are a 19th C thing that we need to move on from. Dunno...

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Yeah, true enough.

I love trains and trams and all that. But there's this little voice in the back of my mind that reminds me that trains are a 19th C thing that we need to move on from. Dunno...

Railway management from the 19th Century that we're still stuck with, for certain. But the entire mode? There's no better alternative. You've seen what cars do to a city

[Beedok]

Cars are really just a self power version of wagons, so they're a, what, 3rd millenium BC technology at their heart?