ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL

Or for liberal northern transplants like me that have an aversion to the Republican, mega church going, the world is all about me, people in the suburbs.

Oh, come on, Babydaddy, you'd fit right on St. Stonefield Court Preserve Close. There's a dandy spot waiting for you right on the cul-de-sac, and the kids next door are chomping at the bit for you to help them set up their new enviro sensitive playscape.

Bumpin in the Burbs - Notorious D-A-D

[Fiorenza]

Or for liberal northern transplants like me that have an aversion to the Republican, mega church going, the world is all about me, people in the suburbs.

I think that's your daddy's suburbs.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

I think that's your daddy's suburbs.

I just peed a little.

Actually the baby's mama prefers the suburbs!

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh, come on, Babydaddy, you'd fit right on St. Stonefield Court Preserve Close. There's a dandy spot waiting for you right on the cul-de-sac, and the kids next door are chomping at the bit for you to help them set up their new enviro sensitive playscape.

Bumpin in the Burbs - Notorious D-A-D

My eyes, my eyes. What the hell did I just watch????

[Andrea]

Fiorenza, I bet your neighborhood rocks. You wouldn't be there otherwise.

And honestly, I love our suburbs. When I cruise through them I am amazed at how many solid hardworking folks we have in our huge sprawling city. Think of all the bright young kids growing up there, too! For all our faults, many places would give their eye teeth to have what we have in Atlanta.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Fiorenza, I bet your neighborhood rocks. You wouldn't be there otherwise.

And honestly, I love our suburbs. When I cruise through them I am amazed at how many solid hardworking folks we have in our huge sprawling city. Think of all the bright young kids growing up there, too! For all our faults, many places would give their eye teeth to have what we have in Atlanta.

I couldn't agree more Andrea. This neighborhood just ROCKS!!! I bet they know how to party.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by Andrea

"Rising gas prices will drive people back to the city"

Andrea I've not read one person make this claim. This entire debate started because of your suggestion that high gas prices would prevent people from moving back into the city as if you believe there are zero jobs in the city.

Everyone is aware that Atlanta is not a traditional city in terms of the concentration around a central core. Everyone knows there are plenty of jobs outside of the city.

I think the main point for those debating the other side is that the city has the most to gain from people choosing to live closer to work rather than the least.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Andrea I've not read one person make this claim [that "Rising gas prices will drive people back to the city"].

Well, how about this:

Chris Creech wrote:

...I actually would think that higher gas prices would drive people more in town.


NativeAtlnatan wrote:

...Andrea, you've got to realize that if you index the locations around town that might see more folks moving near them, the city center would be at or near the top of the list. How could that not correlate to gas prices?

...Hell, I don't have to theorize and hypothesize about it - I hear people stating they want to move closer in all the time due to gas prices

...Seriously, people want to move intown as close as possible and they will come in as far as they can afford. As long as gas prices continue to rise, this trend will continue.

...The point all along has been that higher gas prices will directly correlate to NET in-migration.


Sprtsluvr8 wrote:

...The rising price of gas is surely one reason that people are moving into the city - probably the biggest reason.

This entire debate started because of your suggestion that high gas prices would prevent people from moving back into the city as if you believe there are zero jobs in the city.

Come on, that's a complete misrepresentation. I've never said any such thing. What I said was that rising gas prices could put a crimp in the "back to the city movement," IF people decide to live closer to their jobs. Most jobs (nearly 80%) are in the suburbs and most people (about 90%) live in the suburbs. Statistics further show that jobs in general and high-paying jobs in particular are trending toward the suburbs. Those are well documented facts, not subjective opinions.

And I have NEVER said or implied that I "believe there are zero jobs in the city." That's outlandish, and frankly, it's ridiculous for you to assert that I said anything even remotely resembling such an absurd notion. I'm assuming that's just hyperbole arising from argumentative exuberance on your part, but I've certainly never said or implied any such thing, and never would.

If you'll read back through my posts, you'll see that I repeatedly said there are many good reasons to live in the city and that the city will continue to grow and thrive, regardless of gas prices. Everyone knows that Buckhead, midtown, downtown and the airport all have many high-paying jobs. No one really knows how (or even whether) gas prices influence choices about where people live, but we do know that those decisions are typically based on a variety of complex factors.

I think the main point for those debating the other side is that the city has the most to gain from people choosing to live closer to work rather than the least.

I certainly understand that contention and agree that it could be correct. But I have addressed it rationally and factually, and have pointed out that it's at least equally plausible that rising gas prices could influence people to locate nearer suburban areas, since that's where 4 out of 5 jobs are.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Andrea I've not read one person make this claim. This entire debate started because of your suggestion that high gas prices would prevent people from moving back into the city as if you believe there are zero jobs in the city.

Everyone is aware that Atlanta is not a traditional city in terms of the concentration around a central core. Everyone knows there are plenty of jobs outside of the city.

I think the main point for those debating the other side is that the city has the most to gain from people choosing to live closer to work rather than the least.

smArTaLlone, I really wish you would respond to Andrea's retort. Because when I read your post I was thinking either I have not mastered reading and comprehension or smArTaLlone has not mastered reading and comprehension. I need to know if I should call Sylvan Learning Center on Monday.

http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/p...rformer&247SEM

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL

smArTaLlone, I really wish you would respond to Andrea's retort. Because when I read your post I was thinking either I have not mastered reading and comprehension or smArTaLlone has not mastered reading and comprehension. I need to know if I should call Sylvan Learning Center on Monday.

http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/p...rformer&247SEM

What was the retort? It's hard to keep track of everything here!

Ok here I go, based on what I've read and seen, I DO think that rising gas prices will drive people to live intown. Spending 400psf and spending under 10 bucks a month on gas to me is better than spending 200psf and 200 a month on gas. This is just what I've seen from me and my friends and co workers. Spending money on gas is a waste!

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by echinatl

What was the retort? It's hard to keep track of everything here!

Ok here I go, based on what I've read and seen, I DO think that rising gas prices will drive people to live intown. Spending 400psf and spending under 10 bucks a month on gas to me is better than spending 200psf and 200 a month on gas. This is just what I've seen from me and my friends and co workers. Spending money on gas is a waste!

Andrea's retort was right above my post that you responded to.

echinatl - did you factor in higher taxes, higher car insurance, higher homeowner's insurance into your financial model? I live in the city and it would definitely be cheaper for me to live in the burb's.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by Andrea

I certainly understand that contention and agree that it could be correct. But I have addressed it rationally and factually, and have pointed out that it's at least equally plausible that rising gas prices could influence people to locate nearer suburban areas, since that's where 4 out of 5 jobs are.

I agree this wil occur; but I think it will manifest more as a transformation of suburbanization than an extension of it.

I think--as another poster pointed out--it's becoming pointless to refer to many "suburbs" as such. Many of them are extremely dense job centers which, we would predict, will begin to attract correspondingly dense population centers.

In other words, increasing gas prices are likely to curb suburbanization and replace it with "suburban urbanization." I think most of us agree this is a trend that is likely to continue, even moreso with gas prices. I don't know about you guys, but I'll take urbanization anywhere--even in what we now call the suburbs--over suburbanization.

I also think that this will cause an increase in the desirability of living intown, but that appears to be a much more contentious idea.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL

Andrea's retort was right above my post that you responded to.

echinatl - did you factor in higher taxes, higher car insurance, higher homeowner's insurance into your financial model? I live in the city and it would definitely be cheaper for me to live in the burb's.

Wait I thought we were trying to stay focus on just gas prices.

BabydaddyATL did you factor in increased diversity, better nightlife, more things to do within walking distance, great restaurants and a less than 10 minute mostly traffic free commute to work in your financial model?

Traffic is another things. I would rather punch myself in the crotch until I passed out than sit in my car in traffic. Then, if there isn't traffic, you deal with crazy drivers to the point where you are almost taking your life into your own hands whenever you drive.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

I agree this wil occur; but I think it will manifest more as a transformation of suburbanization than an extension of it.

I think--as another poster pointed out--it's becoming pointless to refer to many "suburbs" as such. Many of them are extremely dense job centers which, we would predict, will begin to attract correspondingly dense population centers.

In other words, increasing gas prices are likely to curb suburbanization and replace it with "suburban urbanization." I think most of us agree this is a trend that is likely to continue, even moreso with gas prices. I don't know about you guys, but I'll take urbanization anywhere--even in what we now call the suburbs--over suburbanization.

I also think that this will cause an increase in the desirability of living intown, but that appears to be a much more contentious idea.

I couldn't disagree more. The suburbs want to be suburbs and are full of NIMBY's. In Sandy Springs, a developer is trying to get zoning for increased density for a development near the Queen and King buildings and everyone is fighting it. People that live in the burb's don't want density. Also, we are now seeing them want to split off from the city....First Sandy Springs, next Dunwoody.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by echinatl

Wait I thought we were trying to stay focus on just gas prices.

BabydaddyATL did you factor in and a less than 10 minute mostly traffic free commute to work in your financial model?

Traffic is another things. I would rather punch myself in the crotch until I passed out than sit in my car in traffic. Then, if there isn't traffic, you deal with crazy drivers to the point where you are almost taking your life into your own hands whenever you drive.

Good lord, have you not read this thread? Andrea and I, have been saying, actually we have been F'en screaming that people don't just factor in only gas prices when they decide where they are going to live. Hence why we mentioned house prices, car insurance, home owner's insurance, taxes, schools, crime etc....

If I had a family of 4 in the day in age, of increasing energy cost, food prices, necessities, I could give 2 craps about increased diversity, better nightlife, more things to do within walking distance, great restaurants. This is about survival for a lot of people.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by echinatl

Ok here I go, based on what I've read and seen, I DO think that rising gas prices will drive people to live intown. Spending 400psf and spending under 10 bucks a month on gas to me is better than spending 200psf and 200 a month on gas. This is just what I've seen from me and my friends and co workers. Spending money on gas is a waste!

Let’s assume that most people prefer to save money on gasoline, and that as gas prices climb they will want to drive less.

The more difficult question is whether moving intown helps you achieve that. If you work in the city, you can say, "Yep, moving intown put me closer work so I don't have to drive as far and thus I save money on gas."

In Atlanta, however, most jobs (roughly 80%) are in the suburbs rather than inside the city limits. So if you have one of those jobs located outside the city -- like 40% of intown workers already do -- then how does is living intown save you gas in getting to work? Wouldn’t you actually save more money on gas by living somewhere closer to your job?


That only scratches the surface, of course. Most people do not regulate their lives solely around the price of gasoline. Sure, it’s something folks like to grouse about, but how many of us actually change where we live because of it? Over the last 20 years gas prices have gone up more than 300%, yet the growth of both population and jobs continues at an explosive – and accelerating – pace in our suburbs.

The flip side of the coin is that the city has started growing again, too. (Yay!!!) This also continues apace, even though the trend is for high paying jobs to migrate to the suburbs and many city residents (40%) are now forced to commute outside the city to work in suburban areas. Yet you don't see a lot of them moving out.

So in terms of actual behaviours, how can we conclude that gas prices have been a decisive factor?

I think what we can deduce from all this is that in choosing where we live, gas prices are only one consideration, weighed against many, many other factors that affect living choices, such as housing costs, taxation levels, the quality of schools, shopping, churches, medical care, racial issues, cultural amenities, social diversity, safety perceptions, status issues, advancement opportunities, the political climate, recreation, nightlife, the aesthetic environment, etc. Gas prices may be important for some people but for others (me, for instance) they really don’t matter.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

In other words, increasing gas prices are likely to curb suburbanization and replace it with "suburban urbanization." I think most of us agree this is a trend that is likely to continue, even moreso with gas prices. I don't know about you guys, but I'll take urbanization anywhere--even in what we now call the suburbs--over suburbanization.

Well said, testarossa. I completely agree.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Well said, testarossa. I completely agree.

Andrea and testarossa, if you want to see urbanization of suburbia go to DC. Cities like Arlington, Alexandria, Crystal City, Tyson's Corner, Bethesda, Rockville and Reston. Those are "Edge Cities." The Perimeter and Cumberland IMHO doesn't meet this criteria. Just because you build a 14 story office building does not mean you are urbanizing, it just means you have a large office park. Also, I can't believe Cumberland has not embraced mass-transit. For urbanization, it is not the height of the building, but it is how it meets the street, how pedestrians interact at the street level and multi-use. Totally my opinions, but worth a discussion.

I am curious, can you point to how these areas are urbanizing?

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL

Andrea and testarossa, if you want to see urbanization of suburbia go to DC. Cities like Arlington, Alexandria, Crystal City, Tyson's Corner, Bethesda, Rockville and Reston.

<sigh> I know, I especially like what's being done in Arlington and in Montgomery County.

Cumberland and Perimeter have a a long way to go but are getting there. Re the former, Smyrna and Vinings are looking good. The mall is being redeveloped. The Cobb Arts Center scored a major coup by landing the opera. They're talking seriously about rail and BRT. They've had major freeway interchange improvements. I think they're also developing the critical mass to begin to see themselves as an urban community rather than just a bunch of office towers.

Perimeter is much further along. There's tons of high density housing being built, with more on the way. They've added the flyover bridge, which is relatively urban (no ramps and good pedestrian features). There'll be a new interchange at Hammond. They're developing a nice street grid, and implementing very attractive streetscapes, sidewalks and pedestrian crossings. MARTA stations are nicely integrated and bus service will likely be improved soon. Utilities are buried. GA400 and 285 will be upgraded. BRT links to Cumberland. They've got incredible retail options. There are several staggering mixed use projects in the works.

Still, there's much to be done, but they've come a long way in a very short period of time. Many of us can remember cows grazing at the Spruill farm not too many years ago.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Atlanta will most likely grow as a series of interconnected (and perhaps increasingly distant) urban hubs, rather than as one central city surrounded by residential suburbs.

Definately. I think Cumberland and Perimeter will still be very much connected to Atlanta, but more distant districts like downtown Marietta, Kennesaw town center area, Windward Parkway, Gainesville and others will densify, and will become regionalized due to traffic they create. For instance, we'll start seeing more mid-rise condos and offices there in the Kenessaw town center area and even some high-rise. People will be living in a 10 mile radius because of Kennesaw's traffic (it's already bad) and they will rarely visit Atlanta. The only positive affect from this will be a real estate crunch we can profit off of, but I think we'd prefer mobility. Things will only get more disconnected if we don't start building a regional transportation network as soon as possible. Enough with the studies! Let's start going on stuff we have already studied (like the Marietta-Atlanta and the Lovejoy rails) while we study the outer parts of it.

Atlanta will always be the center of entertainment and HQ for the biggest of the big companies. Sure, Cobb has the Performing Arts Center and there is arts and entertainment in the suburbs and I imagine it will only increase, but Atlanta will still be the center of it all... For a healthy region, it has to be tied together.